Ind/Modern/Future Start PBEM?

[UnOrthOdOx]

You just want the 2 move worker, I know.

I'll just take a random stock civ, thanks. I have no problem with the rest of you choosing or making stuff up, though. Have fun, just don't go getting too wild. (like: agri, industrial, with immortals as the UU, or some other ludicrous combo.)

[snoopy369]

That would be pretty ludicrous ... especially with riflemen available pretty early on I'd be fine with immortals against me Also consider that musketmen - the one unit directly below riflemen - are one of the least cost-effective units possible ... I'd rather build riflemen anyday. But, at least musketmen you have choices about whether you build them or not ...

With no optional techs, don't forget nobody gets Cavalry either, without researching it first ...

Now, if we're going constructed, hmm. Who to take ... hmm.

Nah, none of this constructed stuff. I'm just going Germans.

[Crashlander]

damn, i don´t have the conquests expansion.... so i´m out of this game folks... :P

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
You just want the 2 move worker, I know.

I wasn't thinking of making up UUs, just of selecting one of the existing ones.

And no Agricultural anyway. So Ind-Ag isn't possible.

Originally posted by Crashlander
damn, i don´t have the conquests expansion.... so i´m out of this game folks... :P

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Crashlander
damn, i don´t have the conquests expansion.... so i´m out of this game folks... :P

Go buy it! It's not that expensive nowadays ... heck, ebay ought to have it for the cheap (just expansion by itself) ...

[snoopy369]

Oh- one question (that's sure to raise a lot of ire, but what else am I good for?):

Accel. Production, on or off?

I suggest on - not only because I like the action in AP games, but in this game specifically it will make the horribly slow production pace a bit faster at first.

We can even raise the shield cost of later things if you want to later slow things down - but it will allow us to build cities up faster, which is sort of like giving us all Ag traits, but in a good way. Think of it as a compromise between giving us prebuilt cities and starting fresh ...

[snoopy369]

Also, a few things:

• Do we start in Despotism or Feudalism? The former gives Religious civs an advantage, but most games with advanced starts start in more advanced eras, as well. I'd vote Feudalism, as religious civs still get a bonus in that they can switch to the superior Republic, Democracy, or Communism quickly - and they build culture fast anyhow, which in this game will be important.
  
• Do we start with any units more than settler and worker? I'd again prefer at least a somewhat faster start - 3 settlers and 3 workers and 3 warriors, say... could make up for that by having raging hordes of barbarians, who of course have advanced barbarian units ...
  
• Tech rate: Do we want to speed up the tech rate? If not, we'll have a horridly slow research rate for a very long time ... I'd worry about the game stagnating if people don't see much action techwise in the first few hundred turns (I could easily see it taking at least that long before we have significantly below 50 turn techs). Alternatively we could lower the "max turns" to 25 or something, to allow us to still have a slow tech rate later on but a faster tech rate to start (still slow by normal standards but decent at least).

I'm going to test it with some-but-not-all of the settings - specifically, with AP on and 3-3-3 units, but none of the rest fiddled with. I suspect with AP on we don't need to fiddle with the tech rate, and I'm either way on the gov't thing (it doesn't really affect my testing anyhow), but we should answer these questions before we proceed

[snoopy369]

Played with it a bit.

Seems Sci. civs get something random no matter what I do. If I give them nothing in the 3rd era, then they get a 3rd era tech (2/2 anyway on tries). If I give them something - ie steam power - they get a random non-3rd era tech. (I got Printing Press, Zulu got Chivalry, though that may have been from a hut pop?)

Barbs on Raging is brutal - well, only warriors, is the saving grace, while you get swordsmen - who knows why, since you don't have iron to start with, and you do have feudalism which is the sword upgrade, but if I assign warriors to you, they come out as swordsmen. (I didn't think warriors upgrade to swordsmen, either, but who knows They do upgrade to MI i think, however.) Anyhow, it definitely messes with the Builder mentality I was going for - and pretty much HAD to go for, given the start I played the furthest tonight started my capital with 4 wheat (on a river/oasis type situation, with a lot of floodplain wheat), meaning it is a 2 (!) turn Settler pump (7 food/turn), with AP turned on. (Would be 4 turns otherwise, of course.) I just couldn't resist going builder ...

Otherwise it works out fine as far as I can tell. Even playing builder with 2 6-size cities from close to the start (2 more wheat on floodplains 3 squares and 5 squares south-southeast!) and tons of cities built rapidly, it was still 50 turn pace to electricity. And I even traded for 3 AI workers ... (which is probably considered cheating, but I wasn't playing to win )

I'll play some more later in the week while we finalize what options to use and what players are playing, try to mess with things to see how they affect it.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by snoopy369
That would be pretty ludicrous ... especially with riflemen available pretty early on I'd be fine with immortals against me

You just try making Rifles with that size 3 city while a stack of 10 immortals, upgraded from warriors since we're min researching at 50 turns anyway, is comming.

I'd vote Feudalism, as religious civs still get a bonus in that they can switch to the superior Republic, Democracy, or Communism quickly

Depends on your strat there...Even after 50 turning Republic, I don't think you'ld be in a position yet to make the change worthwhile.

Personally, of course I'ld love starting in Feudalism.

On tech:

I don't think we'ld need to speed tech advance. Hell, we have SO much **** to build right off the bat, I don't think it'll be a problem going 50 turns.

Start, though...

I wouldn't mind seeing 2-3 settlers and workers, though. Just to speed up what is typically 30+ turns with little to do. I don't care either way in the end.

[Kloreep]

I don't think we'd need to speed up tech. As UnO says, there is plenty to do. It may be frustrating at first to be so close to Replacable Parts and yet so far, but hey, that's why you may want to choose Industrious as a trait.

I prefer not to do AP. It won't be any slower than a normal game without it, and AP changes the game rather than doubling its speed. (Do units move twice as fast? Do workers work twice as fast? Do borders expand twice as fast? Do you get double the free maintenance?)

I'd be okay with extra settlers and workers (though also with not; I'm with UnO and abstain courteously). But if we do that, can we please turn on Mass Regicide so I can see where I'm going? Mass Reg would take care of the starting-with-swords problem too.

As for Scientific civs: I think the way to go is give them Steam Power and let them get one of the previous era techs. After all, they are going to have missed their free MA tech otherwise.

Despotism vs Feudalism: Hmm, tough. But Rel seems like a no brainer, so I don't think we should start in Despotism.

How about Feudalism, but let each player decide to start in Despotism instead if they wish. (I don't know why they would, but there is the strict maintenance penalty and the war weariness.)

Edit: Also, what do you guys think of the constructed civ? Take any leaderhead & its UU, choose two non-Ag traits.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Go ahead with the constructed civs. Might be fun if people want to do it. I wouldn't mind having either Aztecs or Iriquois back the way they were...

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


You just try making Rifles with that size 3 city while a stack of 10 immortals, upgraded from warriors since we're min researching at 50 turns anyway, is comming.

That just goes to show the overpricing of saltpetre defensive units ...

Depends on your strat there...Even after 50 turning Republic, I don't think you'ld be in a position yet to make the change worthwhile.

Personally, of course I'ld love starting in Feudalism.

Religious civs would though Assuming you had enough workers to build roads at least ...

On tech:

I don't think we'ld need to speed tech advance. Hell, we have SO much **** to build right off the bat, I don't think it'll be a problem going 50 turns.

Start, though...

I wouldn't mind seeing 2-3 settlers and workers, though. Just to speed up what is typically 30+ turns with little to do. I don't care either way in the end.

3 settlers/workers would speed it up a lot definitely. Techwise I was just thinking of making the max 40 instead of 50 - ultimately it won't matter but it will make the science go a little faster at first ... I'll play some more tests and see how long it usually takes me to get to <50 turns.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I don't think we'd need to speed up tech. As UnO says, there is plenty to do. It may be frustrating at first to be so close to Replacable Parts and yet so far, but hey, that's why you may want to choose Industrious as a trait.

I prefer not to do AP. It won't be any slower than a normal game without it, and AP changes the game rather than doubling its speed. (Do units move twice as fast? Do workers work twice as fast? Do borders expand twice as fast? Do you get double the free maintenance?)

AP specifically changes the game in one way: It allows you to build more units and grow your cities faster - essentially doubling shield and food production (and possibly lightbulb production, i'm not sure?) So you're right - it does change the game: to allow faster building of units and buildup of cities. Of course other strategies change - that's part of the fun!

The main reason I like it is that it will allow us to build up decent sized cities quickly, rather than taking nearly as long. An AP game takes less than half the turns of a normal speed game to get into the 'productive' time ... which in a game like this is important, in my opinion. Non-AP will drag ... and the strategy will be hurt imho in terms of science - it's obvious that you want to do 50 turn techs until you can do less than that, and 10% science (or even 100% and one scientist once you can afford it), and that to me hurts strategic options whereas AP would much more quickly allow for higher tech rates ...

I'd be okay with extra settlers and workers (though also with not; I'm with UnO and abstain courteously). But if we do that, can we please turn on Mass Regicide so I can see where I'm going? Mass Reg would take care of the starting-with-swords problem too.

I strongly dislike mass regicide. As with your opinion on AP, I think MR drastically (even more so!) affects the strategy. Why not just reveal the map? My ability or lack thereof to see the map affects my strategy in a huge way. (Perhaps we just have different ways that we like to speed things up? )

As for Scientific civs: I think the way to go is give them Steam Power and let them get one of the previous era techs. After all, they are going to have missed their free MA tech otherwise.

I'm not 100% sure you don't get a chance at a second IA tech. I've only tested once with giving steam power ... and a free tech of steam power is a HUGE tech to give, after all, if we're not doing AP and therefore have 50 turn techs for a looong time.

Despotism vs Feudalism: Hmm, tough. But Rel seems like a no brainer, so I don't think we should start in Despotism.

How about Feudalism, but let each player decide to start in Despotism instead if they wish. (I don't know why they would, but there is the strict maintenance penalty and the war weariness.)

Edit: Also, what do you guys think of the constructed civ? Take any leaderhead & its UU, choose two non-Ag traits.

Feudalism sounds good given UnO's response. Constructed sounds fine, but you should post it here with the known fact that if we think it's abusive we'll say no. (I can't think of any that would be abusive - but i'm not willing to say there aren't any.)

[Kloreep]

Well, okay... I'll be dragged kicking and screaming to AP unless someone else objects.

On Scientific: I guess it needs more testing. Assuming a second IA tech isn't possible, I still think they should get Steam Power.

I'd rather not allow for a random IA tech unless absolutely necessary, because IMO, getting Nationalism at the start of the game is as much a liability as a benefit. You have to either go for extremely expensive defensive units, or use offensive units that aren't in the defensive upgrade path.

As for abusive: With Agricultural out, I don't think there are any particular abusive trait combinations. And without made-up UUs, I don't see anything being abusive.

One issue, though, is whether the same UU can be used more than once. If you take Germany, can anyone else have the Panzer? What if more than one person wants the F-15 or Siphai?

If we allow everyone to go for the Panzer, I'm thinking that's what everyone will do... it's the best UU in this game with the tech advanced.

[snoopy369]

Probably true (and why I want Germany of course ) I don't mind other people having the Panzer. I'm currently playing a game where I made up a civ with the War Elephant and am allied with India