30% Iron Civer Tournament- The Forge of Champions

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Rommel2D I've heard Hadrian's Wall described as basically the same as the Chinese- a porus structure yielding primarily economic benefits because it's only effective use was to deter barbarian raiders.

The Romans had fortifications against what they called barbarians, yes. However, those were pretty advanced, organized tribes at that time, so keeping them away is exactly the kind of defense I mean - having the whole border shut.

Originally posted by Rommel2D
If we're moving from the ancient to medieval era, I can't comment on the relative density of their placement, but forts and castles are even more porus arrangements- they cannot restrict enemy movement in and of themselves, just cut off supply lines and deny them a secure front for retreat.

In medieval Europe, effectively every 1 in 2 tiles would have a Fort on it. The ratio would be 1:1 if you took a world map. Porous they might seem, but even basic military strategy requires to kill any resistance behing one's lines. In that era, the enemy needed no fuel or ammunition, so they could do really bad things if left alone. Meaning, castles had to be taken if you wanted to effectively conquer. So no, effectively the defenses were not porous.

Closer to our times, you have WWI, where basically whole borders were trench lines, all manned with troops. In WWII, there were things like the Maginot Line or Stalin Line.

Yes, a mobile defense can be organized. But, most countries still rely on troops that protect the whole border. Those might be crap units (like Stalin had when Germans invaded), but they are still big enough to force the enemy to do the first attack. It is not a new invention, and it always worked more as a deterrent, than as an impenetrable defense. And somehow, advanced civs often thought it necessary and worthwile to do.

Civ3 breaks it, and I agree with the assession, that it was done to help against the crazy AI amarching things to weird places.

Originally posted by Rommel2D
Defending an entire border with a solid line of units would be prohibitively expensive in any PBEM I've been in. A line of forts and barricades might be feasible after a point, but doesn't seem to address the WH exploit with much scope...

You need not defend it against all ttacks if you lack the power. You only need to force the attacker to kill one or two units in order to get inside your borders. Yes, I mean using expendable units, which simply block access. That is not very expensive, is it?

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Modo44
So no, effectively the defenses were not porous.

Effectively they weren't porous, but physically they were, so they don't compare to lining every tile along a border with units. A sizable, well-equipped army could march to any geographic point they wished unless they were actively attacked, no? The World Wars had some examples that would accomplish this, but now your talking about late industrial age.

Yes, I mean using expendable units, which simply block access. That is not very expensive, is it?

The earlier in the game you are, the less expendable units you have. It is a situational solution that doesn't address the flawed game mechanic much of the time. In game terms, I don't see how this could be even as cost effective as dealing with the shift in citizen mood unless you have a huge empire with very tiny borders. Even then you'd have to blockade the entire coast somehow...

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Rommel2D
Effectively they weren't porous, but physically they were, so they don't compare to lining every tile along a border with units. A sizable, well-equipped army could march to any geographic point they wished unless they were actively attacked, no?

Well, yes and no.

Yes, one could march through without getting attacked. However, chances are high tht you will get clobbered. As Civ3 is only a model (and not a very precise one in this regard), the in-game equivalent of an active harassing force is having fortified units on all border tiles. It is not very good, but forcing people to attack with one unit out of ten to be "honourble" is even worse in my opinion.

Originally posted by Rommel2D
The earlier in the game you are, the less expendable units you have. It is a situational solution that doesn't address the flawed game mechanic much of the time. In game terms, I don't see how this could be even as cost effective as dealing with the shift in citizen mood unless you have a huge empire with very tiny borders. Even then you'd have to blockade the entire coast somehow...

Now this is just whining. One can make walls of units and it is doable in most cases without that much of a cost. Fact is, facing the AI you can easily get used to neglecting defensive units, which is an exploit of itself. Guess what, real nations quickly became extinct if they neglected defenses. You have to learn to not to make a Settler/Worker, but a defender every now and then. It is a simple lesson, really.

One more thing. While the War Happiness is nice to have for the defender, it was just as often the attacker who was getting some. People are dumb, and can be moved to accept a war quite easily (Iraq, anyone?). Meaning, you can treat this "exploit" as good propaganda, and be perectly ok with human history.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Modo44
the in-game equivalent of an active harassing force is having fortified units on all border tiles. It is not very good, but forcing people to attack with one unit out of ten to be "honourble" is even worse in my opinion.

No, the game equivalent is pretty clearly forts and the ZoC mechanism. Yes, if you have well manned forts (castles) in a FxxF (FxF?) arrangement around your land, an invading force is going to suffer if it bypasses them. But you're talking about one specific play style available late in the ancient age at the earliest. This does very little to address a broken game mechanism that would have a noticeable impact between two otherwise equally matched forces.

The "honor system" was a different suggestion, and I'm not sure what the details of it would be. The 'single trespassing unit attack' would be a distinct rule 100% enforceable as far as I can tell. Although I don't like adding more rules to the list, it seems like the best way to allow would-be agressors freedoms similar to SP without causing WH to be assigned backwards.

One more thing. While the War Happiness is nice to have for the defender, it was just as often the attacker who was getting some. People are dumb, and can be moved to accept a war quite easily (Iraq, anyone?). Meaning, you can treat this "exploit" as good propaganda, and be perectly ok with human history.

I have little idea what how your local media has portrayed the situation, but my first hand experience is that the WTC/Pentagon attacks stirred US patriotic fervor, and it began to disappear soon after the present administration spun the circumstances into a reason to conquer Iraq.

The game is of course a gross simplification of reality, but I think the designers did an amazing approximation of citizens' moods in general, at least in SP.

[Aqualung71]

So where are we headed for the next Iron Civer?

[Rommel2D]

Instructions for applying to the tournament are back here. So far I have one entrant, two players to test the scenario, and five responses to the poll- march madness hasn't quite struck yet...

I'm waiting to hear from the powers that be on some tournament details. After that I will make posts in other forums and try to have a news item posted ASAP...

[Andydog]

I've just entered. I'm sure interest will pick up once the new tournament is publicised.

[Aqualung71]

Well it's a month since Rommel said a new tournament may be ready to start in a few weeks.

Rommel, where are we at?

[Rommel2D]

Are birds free from the chains of the sky-way?

I just received clearance on the format from the owners a few days ago [edit: actually over a week ago]. I'm still undecided whether to go with the scenario as is or what- the test games have gone nowhere fast.

Right now, I'm trying to iron out some wrinkles with my new hard drive. I'm also starting a new job this weekend and am looking for a new apartment in a more convenient location to coincide. At the same time, I have to finalize plans for re-enrolling at a university and sign up for classes for next fall. Tomorrow night is the first night of our Ultimate spring league and I'm captian of a team (which basically means I'm supposed to be one of the last people to leave the bar... ;-) As soon as I have a spare couple hours, I'll make up a news item to request more sign-ups and clarify some format details. Hopefully I don't have any problems establishing an internet connection at the new place...

I expect to have the first round of games up and running this Friday.

[ricketyclik]

Re: Are birds free from the chains of the sky-way?

Originally posted by Rommel2D
... Tomorrow night is the first night of our Ultimate spring league and I'm captian of a team ...

Cool

I'm a disc golfer m'self.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by ricketyclik
I'm a disc golfer m'self.

I avoid drinking and driving.

BTW- did you get the IC2 test game save last weekend...?

[ricketyclik]

Yes, and played and sent it.

[Rommel2D]

So far, I only have 5 completed entries for the second tournament:

Krill
ricketyclik
Paddy the Scot
Andydog
Platypus Rex

I need the information requested above submitted before you will be added to the list.

[Paddy]

re-applied. then if my application is not sucessful, just say so...

[Paddy]

dp