Iron Civer _Coliseum B_ Thread II

[bongo]

Dogpiling, lying, backstabbing, and now you accuse me of cheating?

Are there anything you won't do to win this game?



As long as the game is in progress I will NOT 'fill you in' on my strategy etc.



If you think it is worth the effort, you can always contact Rommel2d as I'd be willing to share my thoughts with him, provided he don't pass them on to you.

[McMeadows]

590 BC to jshelr

At my barb infested spot at the sea, word had reached me that anger is again in the air. The "why attack" part is not all that important. Fact is that bongo has fought another lucky battle.

Were did you get that battle outcome prediction tool? Allthough it doesn't seem to be very accurate , it could give me some more insight in how my chances were in the lost battles.

Bongo, don't blame jshelr for being just as you are yourself, a fanatic and dedicated player. This game has had all the juice to it ever since the SoZ has been errected. I even enjoy being still in the game allthough I'm back to a 1 sized twonship and can't get anything produced due to the hordes of barbarians.

[bongo]

Try this, a nice little tool. Use with caution

http://www.zachriel.com/BattleCivulation.asp

I wrote a little perl-script which do the same job btw. More cumbersome to use, but in many cases much more flexible.

[jshelr]

IMO, people who reload will kill pbem. Not amused when players take wild shots that seem to always work.

May my firstborn drop dead if I attack, lose, and reload.
Russ

If Bongo will also sign that pledge, I'll shut up.

[bongo]

FYI, it's already part of the tournament rules.

[jshelr]

And I note that you have not actually denied reloading nor promised not to do it again.

By way of note, I specifically told you I did not require a 20 turn peace agreement as part of the earlier temporary stoppage of hostilities, I did deliver technology as promised while the agreement was in force, and my "backstabbing" was actually recapturing of a scout you earlier took from Russia. You seem to regard any resistance to your march toward victory as morally reprehensible.

So, stop calling me a liar and start producing reasonable battle results.

Sent.

[bongo]

I play by the rules. My combat results are *not* the result of reloading.


I call you a backstabber because that's what you are. You backstabbed McMeadows and you backstabbed me. McMeadows because he was your ally and you bribed me to go after him instead of you. Me because you never paid the bribe in full.

If you think my battle results are unreasonable I suggest you contact the admin.

[jshelr]

Since you don't even know what agreements existed that were supposedly broken, the charge of backstabbing McM is bull****. We did what we could do about the situation. Suicide attacks were not in the agreement.

I paid you in full. Maybe you foolishly imagined that the deal would last longer than it did. So, you got less than you expected. But I paid you in full.

The charge of reloading, as I said above, cannot be proved. But you are approaching a 6-sigma combat result for attacks up to now. That's not what bothers me. It still looks like you behave as though you expect 6-sigma combat results. I'll believe you are on the square when you start producing game behavior that looks vaguely reasonable.

[bongo]

Originally posted by jshelr
...But you are approaching a 6-sigma combat result for attacks up to now...

What exactly is '6-sigma'? Got something to do with math or statistics?

[bongo]

Originally posted by jshelr
...
I paid you in full. Maybe you foolishly imagined that the deal would last longer than it did. So, you got less than you expected. But I paid you in full.
...

Here's a quote from the actual peace treaty:

2. When one of the following happens: First viking city falls to mongol forces, viking city get disbanded when mogol forces gets too close, or 15 turns of peace has passed. I am entitled to pick one of your techs, free of choice.

The conditions heve been met and I have *not* recieved the tech I requested. I fail to see how this can be defined as 'paying in full' unless 'paying in full' means 'I really screwed you there' in your language.


What really annoys me is not that you are such a bastard in diplomacy, it is that you go to such lenghts denying it.


Only joy left in this game for me now is to trash you thouroughly, and do it following the rules to the last comma so you can't complain afterwards.

[jshelr]

Trying not to sound like Richard Nixon, I am not a liar. Here is why.

Around the time of the unfortunate attack on McM's stack, Bongo was missing maps, poly, and currency in the ancient era. These techs would look valuable to Bongo, but would actually be of little help in the war to come. That knowledge was the basis for paying the blackmail demands that followed.

We explained right up front that we did not want a 20-turn peace but merely wanted Bongo to see Russia was worth more to him alive than dead on a turn-by-turn basis.

We also determined that if we could delay his attack by giving incentives for waiting, McM would have time to build some spears for his chokepoint fort, and maybe even upgrade when we got feudalism in a few turns.

So, we agreed to give currency up front and another tech "when" Bongo actually attacked northward. This was not a blank check to be cashed anytime Bongo wanted. He could not wait for synthetic fibers and demand that tech.

We also agreed to sell tech at a steep discount, hoping he would decide to wait and buy poly first, which entitle him to collect engineering as his ransom demand. I didn't think Treb upgrades for his cats would help because he has no strong defenders to cover the artillery. (No iron.) Bongo discovered maps, but clearly had no reason to have gold. He had no units that could be upgraded. So, if he waited to get poly, McM had a chance to survive.

Shortly after the agreement went into effect, Bongo decided to see if he could bully me some more. He decided to have it both ways and changed the agreement.

He attacked McM, but demanded to wait before taking his free tech in ransom. Meantime, he was going to buy poly.

When a blackmailer decides to change the agreement every couple of turns, we go into our "yes Bongo" negotiation mode.

We ended up giving Bongo poly and currency as planned. He gave us 100 gold in addition. We would send it back, but it is invested in pike upgrades. He is welcome to come and collect any time he wants.

We have not called Bongo a cheat because we can't prove it. We have indicated strong circumstantial evidence that he knows the outcome of battles or is a wild man. We still simply want an explanation so we can feel comfortable playing.

You may be able to use the lucky wonder to trash one of us. But the joy left to me is that you likely can't trash both. Tech leads are such fun

[bongo]

Originally posted by jshelr
...
He attacked McM, but demanded to wait before taking his free tech in ransom. Meantime, he was going to buy poly...

For your information, 'asking' is not the same as 'demanding'. Rather than telling me straight out you didn't like the idea, you said 'ok'. Wasn't exactly being truthful there, were you?

Of course, the truth wouldn't given you such a beautiful opportunity to screw me over.

We ended up giving Bongo poly and currency as planned. He gave us 100 gold in addition. We would send it back, but it is invested in pike upgrades. He is welcome to come and collect any time he wants.

I will...

We have not called Bongo a cheat because we can't prove it. We have indicated strong circumstantial evidence that he knows the outcome of battles or is a wild man. We still simply want an explanation so we can feel comfortable playing.

(my emphasis)
Where is the evidence then? You're making some pretty serious 'indications' here.

[McMeadows]

Couldn't you have started getting pissed at each other a few centuries before?

You both play to the edge; see eachother as a worthy enemy.

Bongo offered me a peace treaty as well. He asked me to make a better offer than jshelr. I refused as I could see it would, in the long term, only benefit bongo, as it would probably choke me, meanwhile having my ally getting killed, leaving Flandrien and me, who were in eachothers way to fight bongo on 1 front. Therfore I choose to sacrifice myself in favour of my allies. I had hoped they would have counterattacked earlier than on the turn I lost my capital.......!
Just as well as I was not all that amused feudalism came without my money I gave jshelr, to avoid bongo from raiding it... so I could have taken more casualties on bongo's side at the last battle.

[bongo]

I have repeatedly kicked myself for trusting a guy who offered me a bribe for turning against his former allies

[jshelr]

Originally posted by bongo

For your information, 'asking' is not the same as 'demanding'. Rather than telling me straight out you didn't like the idea, you said 'ok'. Wasn't exactly being truthful there, were you?

Being an old New Yorker, this is like a mugger saying to the cop after being caught

"I only asked for his wallet. He chose to give it to me."

I was mugged. Now I'm armed. Shut up and come on over. Let's see what you've got, even if it was produced entirely by luck.