Any more expansion packs?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by alva

There weren't any +30.000 member forum either of course to point out all the mistakes(not to mention fewer set-ups)
I doubt people would even have noticed 10% of the (game)bugs in CIV/ptw.

(not taking about the MP part here though.)
-
IMO they would do better to drop any possible future XP's and concentrate on a well manufatured CIV4,
Any non perfect XP they release is bound to get the same, if not harsher critisism and will attract more negative attention then positive (even if it's a good one objectively), not to mention the reputation hit
Cut your losses and start over...

I mostly agree alva, however, being a fan of computer games since around ~1992 I recall old games were nowhere near as buggy (then again they weren't as complex).

Anyway, putting the bug issues aside, I think the overall "feel" of the game was much more satisfactory. I remember playing Civ1 for the first time and thinking, wow, what a neat little game. Ok, bad example since I had never played a civ-game before. After being a Civ1 addict I remember getting Civ2 the week it came out and not feeling dissappointed at all, it was everything I expected and more. However, when I got Civ3 I was very disappointed. I played it for about a month and then stopped playing it until the 1.29 patch came out. I didn't play it too much either until PTW was out in which finally I was satisfied with most aspects of the SP game (I didn't mind MP being buggy as I had no-one to play against at the time)

What I am getting at is why did it take over a year to get the SP game right, when there were just these little things which could have been solved from the start.

And its a shame that this happens to the Civ-franchise as it is so dear to my heart.

Anyway, I would rather wait for a refined Civ4. Civ3 is sufficiently fun and challanging in SP and MP that I don't mind there not being scenarios. Plus, I still have to find a way to beat those friggin Greeks whenever I get them as neighbors in Deity

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Master Zen
What I fear is that this perhaps might set a precedent, that it's ok to release a crappy product which should have been, could have been almost perfect the first time around, and only decide to perfect it 2 years later.
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.
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I long for the days when games were released right.

Firaxis didn't set this precedent. Far from it. It's been this way for a decade.

When were games released right on the PC? Once developers realized that they could patch games afterwards that ended real quick. Nearly every Microprose game needed major patching.

Originally posted by Master Zen
Did anyone have problems with Civ1 or Civ2??? I don't think so.

Well, Civ2 crashed hard on systems without a sound card (not at all uncommon in those days).

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Firaxis didn't set this precedent. Far from it. It's been this way for a decade.

That's still no excuse to do it, if anything being Civ players we would expect Firaxis to be the one not to do it.

When were games released right on the PC? Once developers realized that they could patch games afterwards that ended real quick. Nearly every Microprose game needed major patching.

Well, Civ2 crashed hard on systems without a sound card (not at all uncommon in those days).

Obviously games have always had problems. However, nowhere near as serious as today. Most problems of before were related to DOS configuration issues, it was DOS's archaicness, not necessarily crappy game design which caused most problems. One would think that falling to a universal standard like Windows 95 and now XP would solve those problems but no, they've actually gotten worse.

And at least the old Microprose games played well, at least on my systems. After some Win 95 games like M1 Tank Platoon and Falcon 4.0 is when Microprose started getting sloppy.

Anyway, most DOS games I ever played were quite playable without a patch ( in fact, I think I've never patched a DOS game...). I can't say the same about games today.

[WarpStorm]

In the days of DOS games where would you have downloaded a patch from? This was before the days of the web presence.

In those days you either suffered, hoped that they had a dialup number for patches (not many did), or hoped that sending in your registration card got you a patch eventually (on a few occasions I got a patch mailed out).

Computers are more diverse now than they were in the days of DOS games. It's just plain harder to program for them. In addition, customers are expecting more and more from their games. The companies have to spend time and money on things they didn't before. The programs are more likely to have bugs because of this. The problem is that budgets and schedules haven't increased proportionally. Most games are on a 18 month schedule (like they have been for years).

Master of Magic needed 3 major patches to stomp its bugs, same with Master of Orion, I could go on with other DOS games. I think you have a mild case of the glory days.

One major flaw in your thinking is that Firaxis has any major say in the plans and schedules for Civ products. They don't. They do what Infogrames wants them to do.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Master of Magic needed 3 major patches to stomp its bugs, same with Master of Orion, I could go on with other DOS games. I think you have a mild case of the glory days.

"Mild" is an understatement

But you can't deny that "back in the days" games overall were not so screwed up as today. Or at least the games I played could be run mostly without problems, and although there were bugs they were never unplayable bugs. The way some games are released these days is just inexcusable and what I don't get is how the publisher stands to gain from releasing a buggy product, usually these games are blasted in reviews and surely hurts their sales.

And also I think most game developers these days have missed a little the true aim of computer gaming: fun. That means that flashy graphics and orchestral music are merely icing on the cake. Take the EA Sports games, each year coming out with better, more real graphics but always falling short of the past version's flaws which year by year remain. Sometimes I play a good old NES game and I find it to be much more fun than some of the garbage that's released today. And those are 8-bit graphics not 3dfx...

Unfortunately it is also the consumer's fault for falling for flashiness instead of game design.

One major flaw in your thinking is that Firaxis has any major say in the plans and schedules for Civ products. They don't. They do what Infogrames wants them to do.

I never thought that. But let's be serious, some of the SP flaws that I have criticized in other threads in the original Civ3 that were corrected in PTW surely did not need months of additional programming. There really was no excuse not to get it right from the start or at least in the next major patch but it didn't happen.

[player1]

Hmm...

What flaws exactly?

[Master Zen]

There were many little things that bothered me:

1) not being able to name units
2) (very) limited range for aircraft
3) no minimap for the editor
4) stacked movement

some others which I don't recall

fortunately PTW solved them

[WarpStorm]

One of the issues is that even tasks that would be relatively quick to fix have to be squeazed into a schedule. Firaxis only employs a few programmers on a projects (they really are a very small company). Every task that gets put in means that another gets left out. When time and money are fixed on a project, features have to be cut when the s*it hits the fan.

[Master Zen]

But not the features I want!!!!

[Odin]

[POLITICS MODE]
Thats the problem with capitalism, companies care more about $$$ than making a good game.

Project Manager: But the game isn't finished yet.

CEO: So what? We'll just make an expansion pack and make more money.
[/POLITICS MODE]

[player1]

Originally posted by Master Zen
1) not being able to name units

Could be done in 1.29f editor.
Not in usual game exempt for leader generating units.

Originally posted by Master Zen
2) (very) limited range for aircraft

This one is pretty true.

Originally posted by Master Zen
3) no minimap for the editor

It's there from 1.21f of 1.29f

Originally posted by Master Zen
4) stacked movement

It's there since 1.21f or 1.17f as I remember. PtW just added shiny little button.

Originally posted by Master Zen
some others which I don't recall

Changing year and date in scenarios?
Yep, that's PtW only.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Odin
[POLITICS MODE]
Thats the problem with capitalism, companies care more about $$$ than making a good game.

Project Manager: But the game isn't finished yet.

CEO: So what? We'll just make an expansion pack and make more money.
[/POLITICS MODE]

There is some truth in this.

Having met them, I know that the guys at Firaxis are concerned about making good games. Thay are all gamers at heart.

The problem is also that running even a small company like Firaxis is expensive. They have expenses that are literally in the millions of dollars a year. You do have to be concerned with the bottom line when people's livelyhoods depend on it.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Besides, Mike Breitkreuz (the main programmer of PtW, and the big guy of the Editor since the beginning) doesn't work on Civ3 anymore.

That would mean no more editor updates.

[alva]

How much does a top programmer cost?
Any idea?

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by alva
How much does a top programmer cost?
Any idea?

Are you thinking of hiring one?