Political Correctness in Civ 3

[Jarvin]

I think everyone agrees that Bismark should be the main leader of Germany, he's one of the best choices of main leaders in the game.

I was arguing that Rommel should have been included as great leader.

[nationalist]

I agree with you also, Jarvin.

[Master Zen]

come on people, just open the editor, add Rommel, Guderian, Manstein, etc etc etc. it's really that easy

Funny but the Aztecs are the civ with the most leaders even though most people have no clue who they were (and to tell you the truth, even my Mexican self didn't know who some of them were...)

[nationalist]

I know that you can edit them, I just wanted to point it out, and I wanted to see if anyone else noticed other odd tidbits (such as your Aztec example. Very interesting I have only ever heard of Monteczuma)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by nationalist
I think that Cleopatra and Joan were horrible choices. Joan never actually led France. Cleopatra was a Greek descendent who ruled thousands of years after Egypt had reached the peek of its power.

Kleopatra was born in Egypt- saying that she was descended from the Greek Ptolemaic line is like pointing out George Washington's family came from England.

She was the first of the Ptolemies to learn the language of the Egyptians, she was exceptionally learned and well read, she managed to defeat her half sister, her brother and identified herself closely with the cult of Isis.

Frankly, if you wanted a better female leader of Egypt, the only choice you'd make would be Hatshepsut- and not many people are aware of her reign.

For the choices of leaders to be 'p.c.' it would mean that the game makers envisaged a large market for female leaders and were anxious to either placate or not offend people with those expectations . I doubt that this was the case at all.

As for Catherine the Great- there is a reason she's called the Great. Comparing her reign to Peter's would reveal the extent to which Russia modernized under Catherine and grew- Peter opened a window on the West, Catherine enlarged it to landscape size.

[Merc]

Well, wouldn't you agree making Cleopatra black was pretty pc atleast?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Merc
Well, wouldn't you agree making Cleopatra black was pretty pc atleast?

Yep. At this rate in about 200 years the catholic church might put jesus a little browner too...

Joan of Arc I think was a poor choice since she never ruled over France and I think that's the distinction between having a ruler and a great leader (who were usually military or lesser political heroes). Considering that France has produced leaders with the stature of Louis XIV and Napoleon.

Catherine the Great was a good choice, plus she looks like my grandmother I still miss Civ1's Stalin with his despotism henchmen in the background though...

I would have also switched Elizabeth for Victoria.

[TheStinger]

There were many better german generals in WW2 than Rommell. He was overated. Manstein would be a better choice.

[optimus2861]

Originally posted by Jarvin
I believe Rommel was more loyal to Germany than he was to the nazis, thats why he tried to kill Hitler when the war turned bad.

Rommel wasn't an active participant in the 7/20/44 assissination attempt. He'd been approached by the conspirators, decided not to join, but didn't inform Hitler of it. That's why Hitler told him to kill himself or watch his family die.

I've been reading a novel called Fox at the Front recently, which takes an alternate history track: Hitler is in fact killed on 7/20/44, Himmler takes over Germany, concludes an armisitice with the Soviet Union, and Rommel is returned to active command of the western front after recovering from his wounds suffered in an Allied air raid on 7/17/44. I'm not finished it yet, but I think I'd still recommend it. Kind of scary to see how formidable Nazi Germany could have been with competent leadership.

[TheStinger]

Himmler would have been a worse leader than Hitler.

[pedrojedi]

I'm undecided about Isabella, but I feel about the same way towards her as I do towards Cat.

Well, Isabella was the Queen who patronized the travels of Columbus to America, wasn't she? That's a fundamental reason of her being a leader. Well, her reign also endured for a pretty long time, since she got to the throne with what? 7-8 years old, perhaps a little more or less. She did a decent job.

[Wazell]

Well, Isabella was the Queen who patronized the travels of Columbus to America, wasn't she? That's a fundamental reason of her being a leader. Well, her reign also endured for a pretty long time, since she got to the throne with what? 7-8 years old, perhaps a little more or less. She did a decent job.

And not to mention that Isabella is very probably the first one that comes to mind when naming Spanish leaders. Generally Firaxis did quite good job when choosing personalities to represent civilizations.

Not as good with great leaders, though. But, in the end they're so trivial in Civ3 that it doesn't really make a difference. After all, when you get a GL, it goes straight away in exchange for production. It's kind of pointless to argue their names and all that, because they currently don't have any individual attributes and are all used for the same purpose. And when you can get 30 or 40 GLs during a good all-out-war game, you're bound to see Barbarossa appear like at 500 BC, again at 200 AD, then 400AD and so on, no matter how many leaders are listed there. I wouldn't mind even if there was only one military leader, named Generic.

[pedrojedi]

Heh, Generic Great Leader would sound like a soldier that can be found in the local stores. What about Common?

All my leaders are Pedro Jedi. After all, he was a great figure at all times for all civilizations.

Yeah, I'm so modest!

[Rommel2D]

The point about Rommel is that he tried to be a good soldier until it became appearant that the Fu"hrer was a few fighters short of a squadron in the kopf, then he tried to be an assassin, but failed at that. His tragic fate was all but sealed when he agreed to support Hitler. Was he someone who could have gone to Berlin and rushed the Manhattan Project for Germany?

[Rommel2D]

How about Area Man and Area Woman? Their heroic efforts make the papers around here all the time. :-)