6000 year civs

[lord of the mark]

now that we know unique civs are in, and are discussing which civs will be in, and which should be in, this raises some interesting questions.

what do we mean by a civ in a 6000 yr game?

I will not start with an easy example, like the Americans. We'll get to them later.

Take the French - who are they and where are they in 4000 BC?
We all know who they are from 1000 AD forward - but who are they before that - the Franks, no? which means that before around 500 AD they are Germans. Just a breakaway group of Germans.
Or are they the Roman inhabitants of Gaul? Thus a breakaway group of Romans. Or more precisely a group of Romans who are conquered by Germans, but culturally subvert their conquerors.
Or are they the ancient, pre-Roman Gauls, and therefore Celts? Breakaway Celts?

Are the Englsih a distinct civ, or just brekaway Germans? In 200 AD the ancestors of most English (assuming all british celts fled to wales or brittany - a simplification) were living in a tiny area of Northwest Germany. Indeed Americans are just a breakaway of that tiny area in northwest Germany. So americans are really just a breakway from German civ.

Which raises the even more difficult questions when we go back before 1000 BC. All these civs Romans, celts, germans and greeks in 4000 BC are just tiny, obscure group of Indo-Europeans, living possibly in Ukraine or Balkans.

Related issues are raised by Babylonians/Akkadians/Sumerians, Indians/sanskrit speakers/Indus valley civ, and in different forms by the new world civs.

Really there is only one 6000 year civ that deserves to be in this game, with unique charecteristics that last more or less for 6000 years.

CHINA.

LOTM

[Maxxes]

Well we're all just a breakaway of the Australopithecus africanus. CivIII should start with only one civ and then a lot of splits I imagine.

[ancient]

good for china!

but then you must also consider in the manchus who conquered china and absorbes into their culture and vice versa so do we know wether they are manchus or chinese? no one knows for sure but the term chinese also fit people who are manchus

[Urban Ranger]

Hmm...

If you stretch it a bit you could possibly include the Egyptians, the Babaylonians, the Cretians, and possibly the Greeks.

[Bkeela]

For this reason I have never once played the Americans in Civ. I would always play the English, and then colonise America and Australia myself. Although in my imagination, they always remained a part of the Empire.

Bkeela.

[Ralf]

Civilization III is aimed to be a lighthearted turnbased strategy-game with some humor in it.
Something fun and exciting for all the desktop Caesars and earth-empire megalomaniacs amongst us - with some nice historic flavour attached to it.

Even if most civs didnt excist back in 4000 BC - who cares? The main game isnt aimed to be an "100% accurate historical simulator" - you have to create historical tailor-cut scenarios for that. And even then you have to accept many compromises and shortcomings.

If only the AI is strong enough, the game is customizable enough, they are bound to have a smash-hit on their hands - thats what I think.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 20, 2001).]

[Zanzin]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-20-2001 05:53 AM Something fun and exciting for all the desktop Caesars and earth-empire megalomaniacs amongst us - with some nice historic flavour attached to it. [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 20, 2001).]

Couldn't agree more Ralf!! I understand what the other posters in this thread have said, but if you want to start of with just one civ and have civs breakaway from it...well, it's not really "Civilization" (the game) as we've come to know it, is it?

Civ is the way it is, and it works that way. It'd be a pretty boring game if you had to wait around for certain civs to spring up at different points in history. And, if we were to play from 4000BC, then everyone would have to start as China...it's just not the "civ" experience.

[ancient]

no civ has never tried to be historically acurate.. couldnt be if it tried

[Lawrence of Arabia]

How about the Japanses? They weren't breakaway.

------------------
Goooooooooooood Morning Vietnam!

[Kc7mxo]

The chineese have been completly conquered several times, I don't think that they can qualify for the 6000 year award either. Neither can the Japanese, their culture isn't even 3000 years old.

Of course us american's havn't even been around 300 years. heh heh.

Bah. Who cares. It is the Aquiloians who shall reign supreme! With King Conan! :-)

[Old Beardy]

Long live the Cretins...er I mean the Creatines, I mean the... d'oh!

[Urban Ranger]

quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo on 05-20-2001 02:33 PM The chineese have been completly conquered several times, I don't think that they can qualify for the 6000 year award either.

That's twice, the Mongols and the Manchus. Both times they left the culture untouched. The Manchus themselves went a step further and literally became part of Chinese.

It doesn't matter though, Civ doesn't pretend to begin being historically accurate

[Theben]

Didn't we already agree that Civ wasn't meant to re-create history?

The names are just placeholders.

[marcuspeddle]

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia on 05-20-2001 02:04 PM How about the Japanses? They weren't breakaway.

The Mongolian race is very old and they spread over a lot of the world. North American Indians, for example. A breakaway group came to the Korean peninsula a long time ago. Korea has about a 5,000 year old history and artifacts have been found that date back about 13,000 years. I've heard there were natives on the peninsula before the Koreans came but they were assimilated. The Japanese (both aboriginals and the majority Japanese) must have stayed with the islands when they split from the peninsula about 100,000 years ago or went over later. I guess they are a double breakaway group.

[SerapisIV]

Okay, CivilizationIII is a game, not SimAnthropology. It's fun, not an evolutionary humanity simulation. So what if none of the civs in the game existed for longer then 3,000 years of prominence, not even half of the game's length. The fact that Civ allows me to watch Ghandi declare war on me and start heaving nukes at my cities, for me, this is worth most of the game price alone.