The Realists' List

[Mathphysto]

Calling all those who crave intricate, dynamic, and, above all, realistic play!! What are your ideas, your hopes, your demands? How much is too much? What would your ideal historical strategy game look like? This is The List for realists - don't be afraid to dream.

Some topics include:

The AI (should it have multiple personality disorder, continuously changing personality, etc)

The Map (should it be tiled, or continuous like real-time "strategy" games)

Time Scale (should it be shorter, or should it change (SoulAssasin))

Production (should there be finite resources, colonies, stockpiling)

Tile Improvements (should the player build them, or do the farmers farm on their own)

Warfare (CTP-style, or Caesar, or Civ2, and should unit production relate to population)

Techs (more techs, simultaneous research of multiple techs)

Nation (how to make civ more coherent, less like federation of city-states)

Society (how should the people's opinions affect the leader's options)

Religion (should it be in, and how)

Economy (how much of the economy should be out of leader's hands and in the hands of the merchants, should there be a national budget)

Whatever the heck you have an idea for.

And if you don't want to talk about that, you can go read the Geneva Convention on some other thread...

[Pedrun]

It is dificult to decide so many subjects in one topic so i'm only writing here my ideas.

The Map - I like Ralf's idea of sligh change in the game height level between those four choices. Although im having trouble picturing the mountains

Tile Improvments - They should be build by the settlers and they have to cost some money.

Warfare - I like Caesars model whee you usualy control units during the combat. Organizing and making strategies in the battlefield. More details see my post in the topic "Battles". This should be a optional feature (it is not everybody that likes to organize armies and make battlefield strategies).
- CivIII have to add unconventional warfare ( Cleric, Slaver, Lawer, ...) from CTP
- Barbarians after conquering a city they change their name and become a regular civ. Other ideas see my post in the topic "Let Me Play With the Dark Civ"

Techs - I like civ2 way

Society - When a civ stay rioting during 4 (or less) turns they become a civ like the others (PS I dont get the minor civ idea)

Religion - This should be in. There has to be Clerics like CTP. Converted cities have happiness penalties and if they riot they become part of the civ that converted then.
- Temples and other clerical improvments are better in some govts.
- I'm open for new ideas

Governments - There should be separation of Politics and Economics caractheristics and combo then
-----Politics - you start with all the options to choose --- Monarchy, Parliamentary, Republic.
-----Economics - You have to research the options and you get a unconventional warfare unit yet to see its benfits. Options -- Tribal(no unit), Slavism(slaver), Feudalism(feudal sir), Fundamentalism(cleric), Capitalism( Corporative branch), Comunism(comunity leader), Liberalism (multinational), Ecologism (to decide)

I really hope others to write their ideas. so we can set a profile of their ideal game.

[Pedrun]

quote: Originally posted by Pedrun on 05-12-2001 10:24 PM Tile Improvments - They should be build by the settlers and they have to cost some money.

The tile improvmens should be build by the Workers and not by the Settlers

Sorry my mistake

[Dienstag]

Some of my thoughts on realism:

1.) No Clerics, Slavers, Park Rangers, Cyber Ninjas, etc... yeah people were converted and/or enslaved in history, but not like this.

2.) I would like more techs and simultaneous research of different techs. Oh, and to make it really realistic how about blind (or at best semi-guided) research?


I would offer that the number one unrealistic thing in Civ (other than immortal omnipotent leaders and Fundamentalism) is movement. For example: instant railroad movement, 50 years for settler to move 1 square, bombers hang in air for a year, dozens of years to circumnavigate the world (Magellan took 3), etc...

[The Rusty Gamer]

Timescale - This is suppose to be a game rather than a simulation of the real world so fiddling with it to try to get it relatively true to history is a bit of a waste of time. It's just a way to make the turns go by instead of, say, "Turn 213" or some such. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing the increments to time being dynamic in the game rather than static. So instead of having the increments change at fixed points, I propose perhaps a decrease of the time increment each time there is a tech breakthrough into a new age. This would give the game a variable number of total turns and an incentive to get to a new age more quickly so as to have more turns to play.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Mathphysto on 05-12-2001 06:13 PM The AI (should it have multiple personality disorder, continuously changing personality, etc)

WHAT!!! Oh, well...

(Its appeantly not that uncommon that game-customers mistakenly reports deliberately designed game-features and angrily reports that as BUGS - and the demand a patch for it. Pronto!!! Well, an AI with "multiple personality disorder" and "continuously changing personality" certainly wouldnt help to prevent above reactions - thats for sure).

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-13-2001 05:26 AM WHAT!!! Oh, well... (Its appeantly not that uncommon that game-customers mistakenly reports deliberately designed game-features and angrily reports that as BUGS - and the demand a patch for it. Pronto!!! Well, an AI with "multiple personality disorder" and "continuously changing personality" certainly wouldnt help to prevent above reactions - thats for sure).

LOL, but true!

[Pedrun]

quote: Originally posted by Dienstag on 05-13-2001 03:06 AM Some of my thoughts on realism: 1.) No Clerics, Slavers, Park Rangers, Cyber Ninjas, etc... yeah people were converted and/or enslaved in history, but not like this.

I dont think you ever heard about the jesuits. Jesuits were created in the counter-reform. They worked in Europe to stop the protestatism and many were sent to other countries(Especially in America) to convert the natives and make them easier to be conquered. That was used in large scale in the colonization of my country (Brazil). You should read something about or ask a history teacher he will tell you about it.

I'm sorry but the slavery happened in history in three ways:
-War prisioners (that could be easily add in the gameplay),
-Slavers buy others civ slaves (a new kind of trade??),
-Expeditions of slavers went searching people to slave(especially with the blacks in africa and indians in south america). In this third option the slaver unit goes.

Cyber ninjas are just a advanced spy with a stupid ugly name and way to colorful.

I wont tell you about the many lawers of a nation.

Corporative branch? i like to think that they are multinationals.

Sorry, for sure these units gives much more realism to the game and increases the fun

[Sava]

The AI Personality - I'd like to see the leaders have different personalities, and if you assassinate a leader a new one with different personalities comes into power. Also, when you conquer another Civilization, I'd like to see an option of restoring independence and then placing a leader in power with personality traits that you(the player) approve.

The Map - Continuous is definitely the way to go, it would allow a more realistic game.

Time Scale - I just want it realistic... one turn shouldn't be 20 years. But I also don't want to spend 4 days going from 4000 BC to 3000 BC.

Production - Yes for finite resources, yes for colonies, yes for stockpiling.

Tile Improvements - Farmers farm their own... I don't want to play an agriculture game, which is what Civ 2 became.

Warfare - CTP style, but brought into more detail... distance, heighth, and the option of surrendering. Also, hit points should be based on supplies and people, so that to bring a unit back to full power, you need to add reserves.

Techs - Simultaneous research, but don't make it easily monopolized. Once muskets, bolt actioned rifles are discovered, it only takes a few battles for an enemy to get their hands on one and then copy the design. Stealth Bombers vs Phalanx is very unrealistic.

Nation - I'd like to see less of a city-state organization. And please, add more of an option for importing food. Real-life New York City doesn't have many surrounding farms, they import lots of food.

Society - I'm not sure what you're asking here Mathphysto, please elaborate.

Religion - Religion did play a huge part in our history, every major war was about religion except for maybe the Civil War, Vietnam, and the Gulf War.

Economy - You could make a game solely based on economics, so lets keep it simple.

Other Ideas:

Canals, I WANT TO BUILD CANALS DAMMIT.

Strategic Warfare, I WANT TO DESTROY BRIDGES, POWER PLANTS, DAMS... YES I WANT TO FLOOD A TOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF A FLOOD PLAIN MUHAHHAH

Diplomacy, most modern age diplomacy has been about disarming one's arsenal of powerful weapons. Pre-WWII tension between Japan and the US was about having capital ships over 35,000 tons. How about having an option of reducing arms in diplomacy.

The Map.... lets make it a globe please, the distance E-W between points on the globe with equal latitude is much greater near the equator than closer to the poles.

Supply lines for military. Pretty self-explanatory. Armies need a lot of support. Most of WWII was about keeping supply lines. Napoleaon lost his Russian campaign because of inadequate supply lines. Same with Hitler losing the Russian campaign.

[Pedrun]

Add on

AI personality - Soulassassin you're right, the AI must change peronality and should change according to its civ present condition. If a civ of military personality starts to loose muny units and its civ is having economic problems because of its continues unit direct production. At one point the personality should change to solve the problems that the old peronality created to keep up with he others civs. On the other hand if a Economic civ become a economic power the AI personality should change to a military personaty. The same for technologicly late civs change the personality to again keep up wit the others. So a civ AI leader continuesly change his personality during the game

Timescale - CTP2's biggest turn(at the beggining) is only 25 years and does go very well and is quite fast.

Production - Soulassasin i'm tottaly with you. Especially about stockpilling.

Tile Improvment - Today the farmrs still need help from the government. I still keep my idea.

Economy - has to be simple, but in civ2 there was no trade. For me the only use of Caravans were to help build wonders. I like CTP2 (CTP's doesnt work either)trade model. Trade usually made part of my civ. Although there was no need for importation (they were just for exportation) But with the concept of Luxuries(+happiness) and resources(needed for production) importation will be needed improving the trade model of CTP2.

PS: Soulassassin what is CANALs?
PS: No body did ever tell me the bads about the Caesar combat system i'm proposing? Please do? i need some critics.

[Roman]

Hey, you realists , how about having more than 7 civs per game. IMO, it is also an important realism issue (on top of the main fact that it is crucial to scenario makers.

Please visit my "behemonth thread" and lend your support for the issue.

[Pedrun]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 05-14-2001 06:38 AM Hey, you realists , how about having more than 7 civs per game. IMO, it is also an important realism issue (on top of the main fact that it is crucial to scenario makers.

This feature is more important than you could imaging. I would change all my ideas for a civ3 with 16 or more civs and good AI.

[Mathphysto]

Don't worry Roman - I already added my name to your petition for more civs

SoulAssasin - When I mention Society as a topic, I was putting forth the quetion (although I didn't really write it well, sorry) of how much of a role public opinion should have. If given enough of a voice, the people could revolt against their leader if the leader's policies are very different from what the people would like to see happen. Basically, this gives a more complex, realistic model of "happiness" and the relationship between the ruler and the ruled.

Also, would you want to see business, the military, and religion be represented by separate AI entities? The business AI would urge you to endorse policies that would increase their profits - and their support would be important for your continued reign as leader. Similarly, the religious AI would urge you to endorse policies that would further the glory and influence of their faith - and their support could make yor break you in certain political systems (feudalism, monarchy - but not parliamentarism). And the military AI would urge you to endorse policies that would better protect the homeland - and would commit a coup d'etat if you displeased them too much (and had, say, a soviet communist or fascist government).

Basically, this would amount to making the advisors into independent entities whose support you must curry and maintain to survive, much less win.

[Sava]

Mathphysto, yeah I'd like to see a society, public opinion, feature in the game. Maybe a poll on what your citizens think about certain things like, "Do you think we should declare war on the Germans", etc then have an answer, "Sire, 52 percent think we should wipe the Germans off the face of the planet!"

I would also like to see proposals from companies to build weapons among other things. Everything in WWII was made by companies. Browning, Colt, Remington, supplied guns and ammunition. Lockheed-Martin, McDonnel-Douglas supplied aircraft. Etcetera...

[Roman]

Actually, Firaxis said that they are considering including corporations as independent actors in the game.