You Clowns Better Fix This Crap!

[rah]

Just for clarification, Yes I know there is pattern, but my point was that I prefer it to be random. There is a difference.

RAH

And the reason I defended Berz. Because it was obvious to me in the first post that this thread was about CivIII and it is a very important topic. I didn't appreciate the diss either. But it has gotten a little out of hand.

[DanS]

Yeh, Zanzin's diss was out of line. If he would have kept to the facts, then Berzerker would have been exposed for the clown he is. The "not the correct forum" is total BS, considering that Ming had a whole section of the List which dealt with Civ2 exploits that should be considered for removal from Civ3.

In the end, I agree with rah. Randomness is good. After many 100s of hours of playing a game at the highest level, I want a little variety. I just wish it had been more explicit. Also, I see no reason why they can't have switches for this kind of stuff, just like random events.

[Sava]

Berserker must be one of those, "I'm a dork so I'll start internet fights"

I doubt you could even code a game of checkers in Basic so don't rip on the people that developed Civ ][. Unfortunately, games are a business. And all businesses are governed by the ill-fated profit margin. Programmers don't always get the time they'd like to polish a game and sometimes the cost of fixing a bug isn't worth the cost of issuing a patch.

Windows 9x and ME have over 65,000 documented bugs that are due to approximately 1,000 sub-routines that have errors. The bugs don't get fixed because it would cost Microsoft too much to fix it, plus they are too busy working on their next bug filled OS. If Civ 3 has bugs, Firaxis will probably only fix the major ones due to the fact that nobody is going to work for free.

Plus, the "bug" that you talked about was your own dumb a55 not knowing about how the tech tree worked, so STFU.

[KrazyHorse]

Berzerker, the original subject of this thread was valid, i.e.: "Why can't I research techs I have the pre-reqs for?", and "I hope it will be different in CivIII". The reason I want this thread to die is that it stays at the top of the list of threads with the large number of new responses, which are mainly just insults being thrown about. I'm not in the CivIII-General/Suggestions forum to read peronal attacks (I know it's not just you doing so); I'm here to find out new facts about CivIII and trade suggestions with people. While this thread stays at the top, it pushes other, more interesting threads down off of the first page. If the off-topic comments would cease, then I would have no problem with this thread, even if I were not particularly engaged by its specific subject.

Could the rest of you stop attacking Berzerker please? Maybe we can arrange some sort of a cease fire.

[rah]

Originally posted by SoulAssassin
Berserker must be one of those, "I'm a dork so I'll start internet fights"

I doubt you could even code a game of checkers in Basic so don't rip on the people that developed Civ ][. Unfortunately, games are a business. And all businesses are governed by the ill-fated profit margin. Programmers don't always get the time they'd like to polish a game and sometimes the cost of fixing a bug isn't worth the cost of issuing a patch.

Windows 9x and ME have over 65,000 documented bugs that are due to approximately 1,000 sub-routines that have errors. The bugs don't get fixed because it would cost Microsoft too much to fix it, plus they are too busy working on their next bug filled OS. If Civ 3 has bugs, Firaxis will probably only fix the major ones due to the fact that nobody is going to work for free.

Plus, the "bug" that you talked about was your own dumb a55 not knowing about how the tech tree worked, so STFU.

Gee using Crappy microsoft software as a justification to produce code with bugs. This must be a generation thing. I am an old application programmer and that mentality really sucks. I am embarrassed whenever a bug is found in any work that I've done.
And to say economics is the excuse is just compounding it. That's all it is, an excuse to produce CRAP. But I am also aware on any application large enough, there will be errors. I appreciate that the patches for CIV II resolved many of them. But I would have been embarassed to be on that programming team. Even when management probably told them to stop wasting money fixing it and just prep it for market. A lot of older programmers have more pride than that. The only thing worse would have been to be on the CTPII team.

But this is all besides the point, If you look at his first post he said...

"If you have the pre-reqs, the tech should be a stinking option!!!"

That is the real issue and that's what should be being discussed here, so go away.

RAH

[Berzerker]

Theben -

There's a difference between "posting a complaint" and insulting people by calling them "clowns".

We are talking about people who fraudulently sold a product advertised as internet ready. "Clowns" is a mild commentary on their character...

People tend not to respond to insults, at least not in a positive way.

I'd be happy if they read it, no responses are needed from them.

Your insults invalidate the whole point of your post, since by now it's obvious that you won'y get a response from Firaxis.

That is your opinion, unless you're a mindreader and have read their minds, your opinion is worth 2 cents I don't care to engage these frauds (Firaxis?) in a debate, I want them to give us the option of eliminating as much randomness as possible and I want a game that doesn't need months of patches to operate as advertised.

And yes, I was able to realize quite easily that you intended it as a "fix" for civ3, but then again it may not have been as obvious to others...such as Zanzin.

Thank you, but IF it was not obvious to you, would you enter a thread to call the originator a fool for not being in the right forum? I wouldn't do that even if I knew for a fact he was posting in the wrong forum. I'm very civil until someone starts flaming

But you didn't know it's meant to be that way, and not needing a fix. Obvious to you, obvious to me...it's all POV.

I never considered it a bug. But I still considered it an 'inconsistency' in need of "fixing" for the next in the Civ series like the extra host techs and the variable number of settlers on sub-deity levels.

Possible...but I doubt it 'cuz then Imran would've leading the charge against you

Lol.

Not the post- the attitude

But it was the post - according to him. He chastised me for posting in the wrong forum, not for my attitude. But I know what you're saying, I meant to be abrasive. I wanted the people who sold me Civ II to know my feelings toward them.

DanS & RAH -

In the end, I agree with rah. Randomness is good

Actually I do see the "pros" of having this randomness, the game might be a bit more boring without it and not getting a desired tech can alter research paths. Nevertheless, I do want the designers to give us the option of removing randomness that gives people an advantage imposed from outside the actual gameplay. That would include removing huts as well...

SoulAssassin -

Berserker must be one of those, "I'm a dork so I'll start internet fights"

It was not my intent to start fights with apolytoners. It was my intent to let the people who sold me/us a defective product know that I was not happy being defrauded. Apparently you found in my opening post a request for a flame war and not a request for a change to be incorporated into Civ III.

I doubt you could even code a game of checkers in Basic so don't rip on the people that developed Civ ][.

So if you cannot build a car engine, you should never complain if the engine in your new car blows up? Oh goody, another flamer showed up for a shooting match unarmed.

Unfortunately, games are a business. And all businesses are governed by the ill-fated profit margin. Programmers don't always get the time they'd like to polish a game and sometimes the cost of fixing a bug isn't worth the cost of issuing a patch.

I don't give a damn about excuses, if you tell someone the product you are selling them will do "A", it better do "A" or you'd better replace it with one that does.

Plus, the "bug" that you talked about was your own dumb a55 not knowing about how the tech tree worked, so STFU.

I never referred to it as a bug, Assassin. Notice how I use quotes? They help us "dorks" avoid the mistakes you clever types are in the habit of making. I called it an inconsistency or randomness on par with the extra host techs, huts and varying numbers of settlers on start up. And while I suspected a pattern in the randomness of tech research, I never was that curious to spend the time finding out. Long before Oedo posted his analysis of the gov't switching dates - every 4 turns starting in 3850 BC - I "discovered" that pattern, but I never went around calling all the people who complained about sitting in anarchy dumb or some other insult for not knowing the pattern existed. Just a note, you guys with the big bad mouths are hypocrites! You'll don't walk around talking like this to people face to face, so you only get the balls to do it from behind a computer screen, you're really pathetic.

Krazyhorse -

Berzerker, the original subject of this thread was valid, i.e.: "Why can't I research techs I have the pre-reqs for?", and "I hope it will be different in CivIII".

Well, Theben (and you) was right, had I put it like that, I wouldn't be attracting flamers (although I'm not sure why they seem intent on defending 'false advertisers'). But my disgust with these people who sold me defective software in need of months of repairs did color my opening post.

The reason I want this thread to die is that it stays at the top of the list of threads with the large number of new responses, which are mainly just insults being thrown about. I'm not in the CivIII-General/Suggestions forum to read peronal attacks (I know it's not just you doing so); I'm here to find out new facts about CivIII and trade suggestions with people. While this thread stays at the top, it pushes other, more interesting threads down off of the first page. If the off-topic comments would cease, then I would have no problem with this thread, even if I were not particularly engaged by its specific subject.

Well, that I can understand. I'm sure if the designers of Civ III have people read these forums they would have had ample time to catch this one. Unless provoked I will be cease posting here...

RAH -

I am an old application programmer and that mentality really sucks. I am embarrassed whenever a bug is found in any work that I've done

Being largely computer illiterate I was surprised to learn that bugs are so common (at least for Civ II) and "accepted", even defended. But I am slowly being assimilated

Cya guys

[Jason]

First, I never made disparaging remarks about Zanzin. That's a lie. What I said early on was:

You have sent a message!
I wasn't really thinking of a "challenge" per se... More of a pre-emptive thing. Anyway, the guy who said it was funny that you were against talking big on the internet as compared to real life made a pretty good point, wouldn't you say? I can just see you laying the smackdown on Firaxis dev team guys if you actually saw them.

Anyway, I just thought it was sad how the guy backed down. I wouldn't have

That's lamenting his lack of backbone? I'd say I'm lamenting his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of your idiotic "I'd beat you if you said that to me in person "statements" which you seem to feel aren't threats.

We are talking about people who fraudulently sold a product advertised as internet ready. "Clowns" is a mild commentary on their character...

How many people were left from the real "civ2 team" when the bug ridden game, MGE, finally went out the door? By that point MPS was in rough shape and most of the big boys had left for Firaxis, if I recall correctly.

That is your opinion, unless you're a mindreader and have read their minds, your opinion is worth 2 cents I don't care to engage these frauds (Firaxis?) in a
debate, I want them to give us the option of eliminating as much randomness as possible and I want a game that doesn't need months of patches to operate
as advertised.

Firaxis didn't put out Civ2:MGE. "Their" first Civ game is CivIII, althuogh members of the team came from Civ1 and Civ2. If you think Civ2 is "crap," well, enjoy Warcraft.

Thank you, but IF it was not obvious to you, would you enter a thread to call the originator a fool for not being in the right forum? I wouldn't do that even if I
knew for a fact he was posting in the wrong forum. I'm very civil until someone starts flaming

You started flaming when you swore and insulted people for stuff they didn't even do in the first post and for that matter, the subject header. A different phrasing might have been "Take this crap out of this forum and RTFM unless you want to make a clear suggestion."

Just a note, you guys with the big bad mouths are hypocrites! You'll don't walk around talking like this to
people face to face, so you only get the balls to do it from behind a computer screen, you're really pathetic.

Look in the damn mirror, YOU are the loudmouth. Who talks about how he'd hit people if they defied his righteous will in person. Guess what. I have no problems calling fools and idiots fools and idiots in person, within reason. 400 pound fools can go ahead and be foolish. Weedy little computer dorks can watch their mouths and think before they speak.

[Zanzin]

Originally posted by Jason

Look in the damn mirror, YOU are the loudmouth. Who talks about how he'd hit people if they defied his righteous will in person. Guess what. I have no problems calling fools and idiots fools and idiots in person, within reason. 400 pound fools can go ahead and be foolish. Weedy little computer dorks can watch their mouths and think before they speak.

You gota admit Bezerker, you are a fair bit of fool. And Jason sums it up very nicely.
When you start a thread the way you did, what did you expect to happen? The way you wrote that inital post was hardly civil.

Jason, thanks for the support. The reason I backed down ages ago is because I'm accustomed to arguing with idiots...I know once you get into a verbal argument with them, they only lower you to their level and beat with you experience. It's an old saying, I know, but so so applicable in this case.

[Berzerker]

Sorry Krazyhorse

Jason -

First, I never made disparaging remarks about Zanzin. That's a lie. What I said early on was:

I just thought it was sad how the guy backed down. I wouldn't have

That's lamenting his lack of backbone?

Sad = lament, idiot! Why was it sad? Because he backed down, idiot! You wouldn't have backed down = you da man!, He did back down = he da wimp, idiot!

I'd say I'm lamenting his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of your idiotic "I'd beat you if you said that to me in person "statements" which you seem to feel aren't threats.

As I explained over ICQ, a threat is a statement about what one will do in the future, not the past. I told him what I would have done, not what I will do. And the whole point of my comment was to expose his hypocrisy - the hypocrisy of insulting strangers from behind a computer screen while not insulting them to their face. And no, what I did to the people who sold me a product (civ II) via false advertising is not analogous, idiot! They are not strangers, they offered me a contract which they violated, idiot! But he challenged me to come to Australia so he could show me how tough he is, that was the threat, idiot (which also refutes your nonsense about his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of the matter)! And since when is it civil to enter a thread and call strangers fools? You are a moron, Jason!

How many people were left from the real "civ2 team" when the bug ridden game, MGE, finally went out the door?

I don't give a flying ****! Why don't you tell us since you find some relevance to this question? My comment ("clowns") was directed to those who sold us Civ II mp and were involved with Civ III. The only way your point here matters is if NO ONE was involved with both.

Firaxis didn't put out Civ2:MGE. "Their" first Civ game is CivIII, althuogh members of the team came from Civ1 and Civ2. If you think Civ2 is "crap," well, enjoy Warcraft

I do, but did any one from Civ2:MGE join the Civ III team? And stop putting words in my mouth you piece of slime! I didn't say Civ II was crap, I said the randomness in tech research was crap (in addition to the other randomness and bugs in the game), as$hole!

You started flaming when you swore and insulted people for stuff they didn't even do in the first post and for that matter, the subject header.

Have you proven no one involved with Civ III came from Civ II mp? NO you idiot! And I know this is taxing your mind, but if no one came from Civ II mp, then there is no one to be insulted since my comment was for the makers of Civ II mp who are now on Civ III. Boy you are stupid!

A different phrasing might have been "Take this crap out of this forum and RTFM unless you want to make a clear suggestion."

Hmm...several people (not Zanzin) knew what I was saying, are you and Zanzin just too stupid to figure out what they knew to be obvious? Yup...

Look in the damn mirror, YOU are the loudmouth.

For calling to task a group of people for false advertising/fraud?
Gee, I guess no one (including hypocrites like you and Zanzin) had better speak ill of those who violate contracts lest they be called "loudmouths".

Who talks about how he'd hit people if they defied his righteous will in person.

"Defied his righteous will"? Don't you mean for calling a stranger a fool while hiding behind a computer screen?

Guess what.

???

I have no problems calling fools and idiots fools and idiots in person, within reason.

To their faces or from behind a computer screen? If you make this a practice while standing in front of people, then you might end up a dead fool. Someday you will get stomped. But we know you don't do this so stop acting tough when you are just a little weasel.

400 pound fools can go ahead and be foolish. Weedy little computer dorks can watch their mouths and think before they speak.

Me a computer dork? Lol, I'm a car mechanic, I work for a living! You - the college student - and Zanzin, SoulAssassin, know alot more about computers than me, does that mean you'll are weedy little dorks? But you should also warn against computer 'dorks' speaking after they think, good advice for Zanzin, SoulAssassin and you. Btw, you threatened me over ICQ when you told me how you would have a baseball bat waiting for me, so your complaining about my so-called threat is just more of your hypocrisy. Oh so manly, he has a baseball bat he'd needs for a fistfight

Oh, if you have a problem with being called stupid, fool, idiot, etc., I am just practicing what you yourself said was appropriate.

Zanzin -

You gota admit Bezerker, you are a fair bit of fool.

You said that in your first post. I see you still have not learned to support your claims.

And Jason sums it up very nicely.

What a surprise.

When you start a thread the way you did, what did you expect to happen?

I wanted the makers of Civ II and Civ III to reflect on their behavior and the makers of Civ III to provide consumers with an option to reduce randomness.

The way you wrote that inital post was hardly civil.

The way the makers of Civ II mp defrauded people was hardly civil, defending them is downright bizarre.

Jason, thanks for the support. The reason I backed down ages ago is because I'm accustomed to arguing with idiots...

That explains how you got so good at making idiotic arguments

I know once you get into a verbal argument with them

There is such a thing as non-verbal arguments?

they only lower you to their level and beat with you experience.

You mean like your first contribution to this thread - calling someone a fool for allegedly posting in the wrong forum when several people have agreed this is the right forum? Even you have acknowledged you might have made a mistake. Are they the idiots or you? You've yet to show how one statement of mine is the least bit "foolish".

Cya fool

[yin26]

I'm SOOOO happy I don't moderate this forum anymore! LOL I must say the lively exchange reminds me of some monster fights I used to get into whenever I'd take a company to task for shoddy work. It's amazing that consumers often DEFEND being ripped off. Bizarre.

I will say, though, I was a bit taken off track at first myself first with the title, etc. It's one thing, I think, to take on a company for past ills (as I have done many times), another to take on current ills (God knows I've done that), and another to take a gun-to-the-head approach over the next project (though that can fall into the "current ills" category considering we have no assurances that certain things will be fixed/changed). Mind you, assuming the worst is a totally understandable and logical position, but I guess I'm just a softy at heart and believe that sometimes working with the "enemy" can get better results than firing up the war machine.

Having said that, I came to the conclusion a while ago that sometimes angry hyperbole, though often creating a low signal to noise ratio, CAN stir up the pot a bit and expose some dirty laundry to the light of day. And like it or not, companies DO need to be reminded of the past...especially computer game companies. On the other hand, those guys are particularly good at "selective surfing."

Carry on.

[Jeje2]

How do you wan't your feedback?

Yin:
Yup, it's good not to be a moderator. This thread is not fun to read.

Then about shouting feedback...
I teach one course and in the endreport I always require feedback.
Well, this year I apereantly did something bad, since a couple students had negative feedback. The first one was right to the point, but written in not-so-friendly tone. Didn't like it too much (Who does?). Second was written in very contructive tone. I notised both with this one and have desided needed action for next year - already. (If I just could still remember it in January )


nuff said, have your own querrels. Luckily vBulletin has an "ignore" option available, if needed...

[DanS]

I don't know why everybody is so sensitive to criticism of Firaxis. Why not just show how it is misplaced?

This thread hasn't been painful at all for me to read.

"The only way your point here matters is if NO ONE was involved with both."

By looking at the Firaxis team page, I think we can conclude that nobody was involved with both, except in some odd situations perhaps (sound, graphics, etc.). As I said, I think Sid & co. left Microprose well before MPG's time--beginning of the Summer, 1996.

Even if you include the Civ2 developers in the "clowns" category, most of them have left Firaxis by now.

In some ways, I'm happy about this. Civ 1 was fresh and had the "Mark of Sid". Civ 2 was more polished, but not very fresh.

[N35t0r]

IMHO, the tech tree 'randomness' is a good thing: it does add up to the fun, and provides a bit more of historical accuracy. What i liked very much is the research system in SMAC, where you could chose the field/s in which you wanted your next advance, but even then you could get an advance not in those fields.

[eNo]

...why is this thread still going on? If you really feel that tech-hiding/blind research is that big an issue go here.

Can a moderator close this thread or move it to Off Topic?
Thanks.

Long time no see yin.

[rah]

Hey eNo, next time read the thread please. This is not about blind research, it's about the pros and cons of prerequisites. So move along. I didn't see anybody going into your thread and asking the mods to move it to the OT, so please show the same courtesy here.

RAH