Civ3 editing tools: what do *you* want to see

[Snapcase's Temporary DL]

Hey, Ultrasonix quoted me! I'm so proud!

[Atahualpa]

quote: 1) Would you rather see an in-game editor, or an external editor (or combination of both), and why? Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?

Standard Windows based! Games are designed for gaming. Windows is designed for working (plus other purposes). Besides I dont like to actually have to start a game to draw a map. Map editing has to be that you open the program and whoopy its there. Also its much more difficult with an ingame editor to do programm switching (alt-tab). With external editors you could do multitasking faster and more convient. Another thing is that you can use your Windows Resolution (which is in most cases higher or at least equal to the game res).

quote: 2) What types of functionality are you interested in seeing in a scenario / map editor? Be specific, e.g., "Cut and paste functions for map creation", "Drag and drop terrain tile placement" vs "Paintbrush-style interface", etc.

Definately Cut and Paste! And I prefer a Paintbrush style. Though it would be nice (as in CtP2) when you could draw a colored bmp and have a utitility that converts this to a Civ3 Map!
Maybe there would also be an option where you could generate a random island or continent with a specific dimension and certain amounts of wood, jungle,.... . So that you concentrate on creating 2 or 3 continents and then put some small random islands around them.

quote: 3) If possible, for each specific suggestion, reference existing game editors that do this well. So, for example, if you think the StarCraft Editor's handling of triggered events is exactly what you're looking for, mention that.

HOMM3 has a pretty good map editor (though it is drag and drop and that is pretty hard for larg maps). Of course trigger editors such as starcraft are a must have! Also it would be cool if you could add some kind of randomness to scenarios. So that they dont play the same.
In HOMM3 for example you can set the monsters you place to random (complete random or level-based (strength) random). This makes it different for everytime you play!

quote: 4) Try to qualify your suggestions as either a "must-have" function, a "would be nice" function, or a "in my dreams" function. We need to know what the most important features are to you, so that we can direct our efforts towards the features that most of you really think you'll need.

Must-have:
* trigger editor + some sort of SLIC (trigger editor should be a front-end to some basic SLIC functions)
* documentation/examples/howtos!!!!!!!!!
Would be nice:
* statistics editor that provide a front-end to those text files!
* debugger or some sort of compiler that checks the scenario on typos and inconsitencies
In my dreams:
* SDK

Ata

[Ralf]

Four nice map-editor features:

1/ Any computer-generated map has a uniform pattern of evenly distributed special resource spots. Thats perfectly OK then using computer-generated maps.

However, then doing handedited maps in the map-editor, one could start standard patterns, but then the creator should have the ability to manually add, (or detract) indevidual special resource-spots here and there, where ever he chooses to do so.
He could combine 3-4 goldmine-mountains packed together, but with very sparse food-support. What to do? Well, if the scenario is played in ancient times you cant terraform that much. Constant food-caravans ala cold war Berlin blockade, perhaps? Challenging problem-solving needed.

2/ Then i paintbrush land-tiles on a default ocean-maps, i would like to have an optional small screen with updated global land/ocean percentage ratio to look at. This way its easier to create 30/70 earthlike maps.
Also, a second global vs. continent-only ratio on the same screen would be nice. Added to that, some percentage ratio statistics on EuroAsia, Africa, North-america, South-america, Australia to compare with.

Above isnt only for recreating our earth-map - also nice for earth-like map-editing, with same-as-earth ratios, but with different shapes and placements.

3/ Moving around continental-sized chunks of landareas is of course a must. Anything that the CTP-2 map-editor can do in this respect, the upcomming Civ-3 map-editor must also be capable of.

4/ Time-saving shortcuts like "Replace [choose terrain-tile] with [choose terrain-tile] globally all over the map", with a click of a button.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 22, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

Personally, I would prefer to see a combination of in-game and out of game editing. It would be preferable if things could be done either way, and that the in-game editors be more user friendly, while the out of game ones should be more efficient. For example, if we are to have a sprite editor, make it so that we can access it while in the in-game scenario editor, as well as a out of game version, that would be equally functional.

As far as the editor itself goes, the more options that we can tinker with, the happier a lot of us will be. Each editor should serve a point, so that you would know exactly where to go to get something done. Maybe I could list some of the ideas for editors floating in my mind:
[*]Technology Tree Editor

The function of this editor should obvious. There should be room for as many advances as the desginer wants (set the limit really high, like 262,144, which is 2 to the 18th power). The screen should have a large "drawing board" in the center where the current state of the tech tree is located. It should start off as a blank slate, and the designer could create a new tech and place it on the "board". It would zoom in all directions, and it should allow you to link two techs by clicking first on the prerequsite and then on the target tech. Panels at the side would allow for editing properties of the tech (special abilities, what it allows, etc.) There should also be the option of printing off the tree an making it a readable picture file that can be put on the Internet. A must-have for easy editing of the tech tree (a complicated process)
[*]Units Editor

This editor should shw a static picture of the unit being edited. You should be able to set unit abilities (move, vision, hit points, defense, etc.) on this screen, as well as the sprite it uses. The tech which allows it should be present here, and should have the same function as setting it in the tech tree editor. Special abilities (of which we could come up with a long list of) could use a seperate screen or maybe a scrollable list of radio buttons. There should be a flag like the role in Civ2, but there should be also the option of "teaching" the unit how to act, i.e. tactics. The last option would fall under would be nice, but the other ones are in the "must-have" category.
[*]Sprite Editor

Basically a editor that edits sprite files. It would be able to create and save sprites with a large (256) color pallette, and should be relatively easy to use. It would be nice to have one, but it would do wonders for helping belaguered scenario creators.
[*]Map Editor

Creates map files for Civ3. A must-have, it should also have optional effects like adding terrain specials by hand, and copying large chuncks of maps and pasting them elsewhere (useful for resizing). You should even be able to place cities and terrain improvements, although that is just an idle idea in my mind.

An event scripting language would be critical for the further development of scenarios. Events allow a creative designers to bend the game to do something that nobody had yet envisioned. Keeping the language simple (like the one used in FW and TOT) will allow beginners to learn faster, but a more C like language would allow for more complex functions. The line probably will have to be drawn somewhere in between.

Other tweakable factors, like governments and the rest should have a way of being edited too with an in-game editor. However, if this is excessive, the extra editors should be dropped.

Above all, ensure that graphics, rules and next to everything that is not part of the main program be in an easily editable format (.txt, .gif, .bmp, etc) so that it can be edited without the use of the editors, if it is prefered.

That's just my opinion though. Use these ideas as you want. Thank you.

Shadowstrike

[Mike the Nuke]

Shadowstrike:

Like it all. About as perfect as youu can get. Ensure all documentation is done correctly with examples for us 'dumb' folks. Great Ideas!

[DarthVeda]

You can build the most sophisticated and easy to use scenario creation tool in the world, but please leave the back door open for people who want to experiment with the bizzare (like Nemo and I). Keep in mind that there is no truth to the phrase "they'll never use that"

If it's in the code, we want to play with it.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

[quote]
Sprite Editor
Basically a editor that edits sprite files. It would be able to create and save sprites with a large (256) color pallette, and should be relatively easy to use. It would be nice to have one, but it would do wonders for helping belaguered scenario creators.
{/quote]

I doubt that we will include a Sprite editor that functions like a paint program, mostly because there are so many programs already out there (of varying levels of cost and quality) and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel for a rudimentary sprite editor.

I have a feeling most mod editors who tinker with art files use something on the level of Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro anyway...


Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[PrinceBimz]

I think CIV3 should do away with this "cheat mode" scenario editor stuff that was in all the CIV games and even SMAC. Please change it, I really don't like the way that works. Why? Well for example when I went to make a SMAC scenario I wanted to add ships and certain units available. But I had to search through the entire tech tree just to give that nation those units. I think it could be much easier then that. You should be able to pick whatever units, techs, and everything else you want and simply place it where you want, setting up everything and creating your own world.

Examples of excellent editors are Starcraft and Age of Kings. I know the CIV games are very different then those RTS games I mention, but an editor that works as good and effective as those would be top notch! Have an external editor like Starcraft, which is a seperate program from the game itself. I notice Activision has improved on the editor with CTP2, which is a great thing.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-23-2000 01:16 AM I doubt that we will include a Sprite editor that functions like a paint program, mostly because there are so many programs already out there (of varying levels of cost and quality) and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel for a rudimentary sprite editor. I have a feeling most mod editors who tinker with art files use something on the level of Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro anyway...

ARE YOU SAYING THAT UNITS IN CIV3 ARE STILL A SIMPLE GIF?

[Snapcase on Snapcase]

I hope what he's saying is that the opinion to use bitmapped units is still in there...

I don't mind using external applications to create units, with one caveat: please make the editor alt-tabable or windowed, and with a refresh files function to reload the graphics and text files. This is to make sure we can check how a unit looks, do minor modifications, and continue editing.

[El hidalgo]

Re: the map editor:
I agree: Cut and paste, drag and drop, individual placement of special resources, find and replace.

Also:
*Cropping and enlarging -- Sometimes I make a map and decide that I want to make it smaller, or make another, smaller version of it. Now I have to count the tiles, make a new map of the appropriate size, and then start a game with the old map, cheat and reveal map, and then toggle between that and the map editor to accomplish this. Or sometimes I make a map and decide I need more room. I should be able to enlarge the map in that case. Basically I should be able to change the size of the map at any time, not just before I begin creating a map.

* Open a new window with a map, open a new map in a new window. I should be able to open as many windows/maps as my computer can handle.

* Paint bucket: I should be able to fill a specifiable area with any terrain type.

* Guide lines: Currently when I make maps I draw grids -- I make rows and columns of arctic terrain (since that is the least used, at least by me). Then I use the grid thus created as longitude and latitude lines. I look at a real map and build my map based on that, one quadrant at a time. It's much easier to keep things proportional that way, though it is a pain to make the grid. Also the grid I make is actually part of the map, so I have to go and draw over these arctic squares. It would be better to have a grid system that is not part of the actual map, but only part of the editor. This would be like the guide lines in Photoshop.

* The ability to draw a line: I should be able to place a terrain in one sqaure, and the same terrain in other square, and have a line of that terrain drawn connecting the two points.

* Lock any terrain: Currently I can lock the ocean squares so I don't draw over those. Why can't I lock any other terrain type(s)?

* A better random map generator. I don't have any specific suggestions right now, but the Civ 2 generator is horrible. The Civ 1 generator was better, IMO.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?

For this particular game (main game + map-editor) i actually prefer standard MS Windows-style interface with standard Windows controls. Now, stop there! Are you serious, Ralf?? Are you talking about MS Office-graphics?

No! Like everybody else (i believe), i want some customized game interface-ATMOSPHERE.

But *why* not start out with "naked" 100% MS Windows-style - and then let the player have the free choice between different "clothes" (= custom Civ-skins). Nothing drastic; positions, screens and functions remains unchanged. Only superficial cosmetic changes, like colours, patterns, styles, shapes and such.
Could you guys imagine how artisticly talented people out there, really would LOVE to set their teeths into the project of designing the cosmetics around the existing positions, screens and functions in this true follow-up to the all-time classic?

Wood-buttons or shiny metallic ones? For some people, designing these frameworks could be a mini-hobby in iself. "I dont care for this superficial stuff" - OK, choose naked Windows, or some of the more sparse and functional skins then. Check out www.neoplanet.com for inspiration (remember though: if FIRAXIS chooses to implements such a function themselfes, the result is going to be much more integrated then Neoplanets third-party "shell" on top of MS Internet Explorer).

So much for the "cosmetics". What about the controls and functions? Here, i would like to see even more Windows design-mechanics then in SMAC. In addition to select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, radio- or toggle buttons, tabs-screens - also top-right dropdown-menys and (why not) customized toolbar ala simplified Ms Office.

What about principal guidelines how to present the ongoing game-information?

1/ Make one (yes one) big 640x480 multi-tabbed "city/empire/and-all-the-rest" manager-screen (any tab can be radio button-defaulted on fly). Please DONT split up the manager-info CTP-style, or even CTP-2 style.
Its all about *reducing* the amount of mouse-clicks - everything ONE click away on ONE multi-tabbed manager. I would have suggested 800x600 but this all-in-one manager should be nicely overviewable on laptops as well.

But what if i want to look at *several* screen-tabs at once? When you use the toolbar (or dropdown-menu) backup-screen alternative: you can look at several smaller simplified non-input data-only feedback-screens at once on your big high-res monitor. And they all remember their indevidually chosen screen-positions from game to game, of course.

2/ Dont be subtle when it comes to inform the player about cities and units without orders. Let then *flash* clearly and use automatic map-recentering. Also let above single mega-manager and all warnings-messages pop-up automatically in the users face if he wants it that way. If he *dont* want it that way, there should of course be options and tweaks for that as well.

3/ I loved the huge amount of info toggle-options in SMAC - do the same in Civ-3 as well. This or that warning-message or not? Automatic mega-manager popup, or not? And more!

In short; those who let the mayors control their huge 40-60+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in moving around armies, should not feel overwelmed by pop-up screens and popup-messages.
On the other hand: those who ENJOY micro-managing their smaller 15-20+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in nurturing these cities/city-areas for long parts of the game, should have every info/new order popped up in their faces, if they chooses that.

Flexible is the word!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 24, 2000).]

[DarkCloud]

Map Editing-

-The map editor should not change the tile selection when you use the keypad to move to new squares and place terrain. This is an annoying feature that adds much time to the creation of maps.

-You should also be able to make 2 and 3 tile long rivers and place them down, so as to make an Amazon or Mississippi.

[Zer0_T0lerance]

I think the scenario editor should have an endgame action that can be triggered by an assigned event, or multiple events for different ways to end the scenario. You could make a scenario a race against time: For example, the first civ to discover a specific tech advance or build a specific wonder wins. This would a allow designers to make the ultimate goal of their scenarios something other than to just conquer an enemy civ or conquer the world. I think that whether you use objectives or not, it's quite apparent that the scenario editor in Civ2 is primarily designed to create warbased scenarios and not scenarios based on some economic, scientific, diplomatic or some other non-warlike goal. Because even without objectives, the only other way to win a scenario is to survive, and that is still a warlike goal.

------------------
Zero (formerly jrhughes98)

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?

Im not sure if above only implies the map-editor. I beleive it envolves suggestions about the MAIN GAME as well.

Dont forget this important subject - not everything is about that map-editor, you know. I have already started in my previous post.

More interface-specific opinions and suggestions needed!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 24, 2000).]