Only 7 civilizations per game

[Roman]

Right, the first piece of truly negative news about Civ 3 is here. We will, yet again, only be able to play with a maximum of 7 civilizations per game. This is a terrible crime against the mod making community, as the 7 civilizations limit is the single most limiting factor for making scenarios. I hope Firaxis reconsiders this decision.

On the positive side, all the other news about the game is excellent , but this 7 civilization limit has the potential to be trully ruinous.

[The diplomat]

you have to look at how the number of civs in a game will affect the AI and the computer requirements. I am sure that Firaxis would have increased the max civs if they could have but I don't think it is possible.
The burden on the AI would be too much!

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[Fintilgin]

To say I'm severely disaponted by this news would be an understatement on par with saying the ocean is `slightly damp' or space is `kinda big'.

I beg Firaxis to at least not hard-code this so that fans can tweak it in the config files or something. Silly as it may be, this was one of the /main/ things I wanted improved over the earlier versions. The world always seems more empty then I'd like. My preference would be, ideally, to on a map of Earth have at least two or three Civs per continent.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that adding a couple more Civs on top of the `base' seven is going to suddenly swamp our computers to a crawl. Maybe running 32 or 64 would be a little rough, but how `bout 10 or 12? You're telling me that my nifty new computer which can run Black & White at lighting speeds and NINTY odd nations in Europa Universalis is going to choke and die trying to run 14 CivIII nations at once?!

Maybe I'm totally off base, but my suspicion is that there's a limit of seven Civs at once because seven is the traditional number from Civ,CivII, and SMAC. Not because of any intense gameplay issue or computer slowdown.

I really hope that Firaxis allows us to, if we choose, mod our game in such a way as to be able to play with 20-30 or so Civilization, even if we have to add all the extra art and such ourselves. I'm hopefull that they'll leave the CivNum flag open.

Nothing could make me happier then hearing that was so.

Er... nothing computer game related that is.

Joe

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat on 04-27-2001 02:16 PM The burden on the AI would be too much!

I certainly agree to that.

On the other hand: remember that those tweakable text-files will most probably be even more extensive and player-tweakable then ever before. The same goes for all the in-game preferences and options. Perhaps they leave a unofficial backdoor open for added AI-civs in some text-file.

[Fintilgin]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 04-27-2001 02:40 PM Perhaps they leave a unofficial backdoor open for added AI-civs in some text-file.

I bloody well hope so.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Fintilgin on 04-27-2001 02:37 PM You're telling me that my nifty new computer which can run Black & White at lighting speeds and NINTY odd nations in Europa Universalis is going to choke and die trying to run 14 CivIII nations at once?!

In EU the whole game plays on one and the same default and pre-analysed map, again and again. Not only that: the locations of ALL provinces (= cities) are also pre-defined and known in advance by the AI-programmers. Also, the rules how to move around; what you are allowed to do; how the diplomatic start-out conditions are layed out, and finally how all the basic game events are going to appear - are all things that are much more known in advance, by the EU developing team, then similar variables in the Civ-3 game. Just consider the armies (euqvivalent to units) in EU: How many units and armies (per city and per empire) is there in Civ-3 for the AI to keep track of? Compare with EU: The last time I played as England I had between 4-8 of them only (including fleets).

One last thing: There are perhaps upto 90 nations. But most of them only acts like minor and rather passive support-nations. All the active AI-action only happends between the 13 big ones.
PS: EU is a great game by the way - but, its not Civ-3. Its just a rather different game.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited April 27, 2001).]

[airdrik]

How about this, leave the origonal game to 7 players with no .txt tweaking, BUT come out with modpacks that allow more civs to be added. This way you can have the superiority of a 7 civ AI in the main game, but eventually allow up to about 15 other civs through modpacks.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by airdrik on 04-27-2001 03:31 PM How about this, leave the origonal game to 7 players with no .txt tweaking, BUT come out with modpacks that allow more civs to be added. This way you can have the superiority of a 7 civ AI in the main game, but eventually allow up to about 15 other civs through modpacks.

Hmmm - im not sure if I understand what you mean here. According to Firaxis, the player can choose upto 7 AI-civs (or is it including the human player) from a total palette of 16 available civs. I am a little surprised that they only allowed 16 civs here, but I suspect this is a result of their decision on implementing the AOK-feature "Unique (dis/)Advantages for each civ". Anyway; these 16 default civs can of course be replaced in scenarios by other tailor-cut designed ones.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Fintilgin]

Well, yes, I suspect the AI in EU does have a little less work to do. But so much that we're still limited to seven civs? Honestly I find that hard to believe. Surely 14 or so would run fine on most computers.

Joe

[Ceci n'est pas Snapcase]

Look, don't read too much into it. Let me quote the magazine: (Unlike every other quote this is the journalist writing and not a transcript of Jeff Briggs) "Playing as one of 16 different civilizations, you pit your wits against up to six other computer-controlled nations as you strive to conquer the globe." It might be a journalists' fault or an implication that you get to play against 16 civs and six, er, "nations" (forget that, stupid theory), but you read into it what you like.

[airdrik]

To expund on the Idea, the main game allows 7 civs chosen between 16 different civilizations. Later they release a modpack which adds say 4 civs to choose from and allows 8 civs in a game. Another modpack increases the number in a game by 2. Another modpack adds 4 more civs to choose from, etc. Kind of like they did in AoE with the conquerors expansion pack (added 4 civs, one style, and a number of various terrain features).

[JamesJKirk]

I dunno, the idea of having to buy endless modpacks to get something that was pretty much expected doesn't appeal to me for some reason...

[Fintilgin]

I don't have to read into that. It's clear they intend out of the box support for seven playing nations at once.

My only hope now (if they don't change their mind) is a backdoor in the .txt files for those of us who want more.

:: prays and begs to Firaxis not to make this poor CIVer cry this Christmis. ::

Joe
[This message has been edited by Fintilgin (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Roman]

Fintilgin, for me this was also one of the most important things to be changed from Civ 2. Sure, if they allowed us to edit the number through text files, I would be more than satisfied, but I am sceptical on this issue.

[Ilkuul]

Well, I really hope that 'minor civs' are included, and that they amount to something! (Not just different incarnations of the same old barbarians...) I wouldn't mind carrying on with 7 major civs, if there are now a lot of minor ones continually popping up to add interest to the game. Which means that it would be necessary to be able to negotiate to some extent with them - limited, obviously, otherwise they'd be major civs. But this could add a lot more variety to the game.

What do you think from the scenario/mod point of view, Roman - would minor civs help offset the 7-civ handicap?