Civ Specific Units

[Sava]

I disagree with the fact that the "Vikings" or "Russians" could start out on the equator instead of their natural habitat. Having such randomness takes away from the realisticness of the game. Each Civ's culture developed around the area where it started. Everything about their uniqueness stemmed from their environment. Look at Egypt's relationship with the Nile River. Frankly, I want a REAL game, and not some random collection of muppets. I'm against certain Civ's given their own starting point at 4000 BC. The Americans branched off of the English. I would like to see an Ancient Age group of Civilizations which evolve into Modern Age Civilizations. Some will stand the Test Of Time (no pun intended), others won't.

[Sirotnikov]

I agree with grumbold. Having premade Romans that are the same each time is boring...

[Sava]

Grumbold, another purpose of the unique units would be to say, "What if the Romans had Jet planes?" We have to trust that Firaxis will take that next step and develop modern age units for all of the civilizations as well as ancient age units. How about making only unique units, with unique Jet fighters for each Civ, unique legion units for every civ, etc.

Did you know that around 50 AD, a roman philosipher/inventor discovered how to make a working Steam Engine? He died before he ever built a prototype. Just think, there almost was an industrial revolution in ancient Rome that would've change the course of history.

[Grumbold]

I believe the current plan is for each race to get only one unique unit in the entire timeline...but getting two, three or even ten unique units won't alter the fact that they are being predetermined at 4000BC. There ought to be a way of changing the scenario from game to game so the nation starts "Roman" but gradually becomes a different "Roman" as you make choices in the game. For instance you research iron working and get an Iron based unit. Then IF YOU CHOOSE you can research one extra tech: mobility, defense or offense which will alter your iron based unit. Pick defense and bingo you have the Legion. Pick Offense and you have Norse Baresarks. Pick mobility and you have Byzantine Cataphractoi. No matter what you decide, it doesn't affect the options you will get to customise your tanks or fighters 2,000 years later.

[Roman]

People in both "camps" should now be very happy.

[jordanz19]

Ok, now everyone can stop complaininjg about unique civs, they can be disabled. This whining has gone on long enough.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 05-13-2001 04:49 PM But why the silence on the two biggest burning questions here, how many max civs (7 or 8 or ??) and what years the game starts and ends?

Harlan, the answers to these two questions, just like to all really big and important questions is one and the same:

42

[Cyclotron]

If you must know, I've always been shut-the-hell-up intolerant. It gives me a rash.

My problem is that... sure, we can play with no specific units. But Firaxis' decision to go with pre-set civ units and other stuff means that there is no chance I will get what I want:

Civ-specific bonuses that are created by the actions and decisons of the player.

What's the point if you can't earn the bonuses? Well, I guess some people would rather have them on a platter. It's too bad, I think it would have immesely opened up the strategic possibilities in civ, and given the player a real feeling that it was their civ, and not a default civ with some fixed ability.

------------------
- Cyclotron7, "The Rajah of Resources"

[Harlan]

Markos: 42? That's great news as far as the maximum number of simultaneous civs, but really bad news as far as the number of years the game lasts.

Cyclotron, Grumbold and others, let's all chant together: "third option, third option!" One that gives you choice in determining the special units. This is not grumbling, this is trying to influence the gamemakers so they'll make a better game. Jordanz19, if you don't see how this simple change would make the game so much better, look again. There would be so many hard decisions to make regarding which special unit you choose, to go for something early or late in the game, to get one as a blocking move to prevent someone else from getting a good one, research races to reach them, and so forth. An endless array of strategic gambles and choices, all wiped out by having it predetermined. So no, I don't want the whining to end, and Roman, this camper is still not happy.

Can anyone seriously put forth any gameplay arguments why having the special units all predetermined would be a better way to go?

[Cyclotron]

Sounds good, Let's chant signature style!

------------------
"Third option, third option!"
Let's have civ bonuses that YOU control!

[Theben]

I've tried shut-the-hell-up and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

While I prefer the "experience of the civ makes the bonus" approach, I'll settle for Harlan's idea, which IMO would work quite well and not require too much redigning on Firaxis' part. Another voice for 3rd option.

[Roman]

Well done Jeffrey Morris and Firaxis! You have chosen the best of both worlds.

Could you possibly give us an "example civ" to see what kind of bonuses the civs will have other than units? Is it like in SMAC (eg. +1 to growth, or +1 to research, etc.)?

Thank You for Your time.

[Roman]

People who like and people who dislike unique civs should now both be placated, so why in the world do they keep on complaining?

There is no way the "third option" is going to be implemented. That would require massive redesign of the game. Just be happy that you can turn off unique civs.

As far as I am concerned this issue has been completely resolved (to my satisfaction [I was undecided on the matter]).

[Grumbold]

Sorry Roman but I will have to agree to disagree with you. I believe there is a fundamental difference between a choice to make at the start of the game and choices to be made within the game. You obviously don't agree, and that is your right. This is a point that was raised by several of us well before the FIRAXIS implementation was announced. It is not a case of asking for one thing then not being satisfied when we get it. I'm not going to change my mind and become a convert to this "Age of Empires" approach now when there are better alternatives. Hopefully extensive playtesting will show up its limitations and make them reconsider.

[Roman]

Sure, Grumbold, but what I am saying is that you will also have the option of turning the pre determined bonuses off - so that only your in game choices will shape your civilization. What more is neccessary?