unique civs an alternative approach (serious this time)

[lord of the mark]

OK heres a way you could have unique civ attributes , with whatever that adds to gameplay,without the negative historical implications.

Instead of attributes to Germans, Greeks etc. Attributes are to "river civilization", "island civilization" "grassland civilization" etc. Probably horsemen and militarism to grasslanders, trade and naval to islanders and coastal, agriculture and development to river valleys, infantry to hills and mountains, etc. The "french" always start with same leaders and city names, but can be played as river, island, grassland etc.

Can be implemented either based on starting terrain of first settlers, or terrain of first city.

You could get the unique attributes on a different terrain (what if i had grassland attributes but started on river valley) but that would not be default option.

LOTM

[Sabre2th]

I think this is a stretch. I wouldn't mind civ-specific graphics or sounds, but unit functions and abilities should be the same for all.

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"We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything."
-Thomas A. Edison

[tniem]

I like it ltm. The type of civ the group would be would depend on a radius around the civ.

Of course there would need to be multiple 'river' civs in order for there to be some difference between the different AI nations you face. And evolution of that civ from river to grass land if the civ leaves a river area should be included.

But I must commend you lord of the mark, you have begun to search for a compromise that you can live with. Even if we all know that you still want to destroy the idea entirely.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think your idea is crap LOTM

How can you have a grassland civ?

You will have more than 10 cities in most games and these will be all over the geographical map. Some in grasslands, some near the sea, some surrounded by gold mountains.

It cannot work.

Don't waive a bit from our stance. NO UNICS!

[Pedrun]

Its the civ that has to adapt to its geografical cindition an not start with predetermined bonuses

[Gammaray fan]

Lord of the Mark,
I like what you are trying to get at, but you're idea is incomplete and somewhat flawed. I will thus provide a list of possibilities (some could be combined) to achieve what you are trying to explain.
1. Civ attributes (such as the faction attributes in SMAC) should be decided not by the starting square of the city, but by the terrain type that you have most of in all you're city radius's. eg. 56 forest, 26 plains, 5 mountains = forest civ. This way, a player can plan his game and switch to a grassland civ for example if he believes that will be better by building more cities in grasslands. THus city placement becomes a part of the STRATEGY of the game! THis is a far cry from the FIXED attributes in SMAC.

2. Wonders could act give civ attributes. For this to work, there would have to be a set number of wonders each civ could build per age and their would have to be enough wonders for each civ to be able to build the maximum number of wonders per age. Eg. I build Pyramids to get a trade bonus (this effect remains for the whole game). I also build a collosus to get another trade bonuses (= +2). In the next age, war sweeps the continent and trading becomes less useful (I still have +2 trade bonus from ancient age (bonuses don't expire)) so I build a leonardo's workshop to get a land war bonus (war bonuses automatically negate one trade) and a magellens expedition to get a sea bonus. Now my civ attributes are +1 trade, +1 land war, +1 sea movement. etc. etc. This also provides a fluid changing attribute system.

3. THe Improvement overload model. Instead of having improvements that usually have to be built (with the exception of luxury ones like colloseum) have say 10 granary type improvement, with each new one built adding to the effectiveness at that action (in that case increasing population). You would also have about 10 marketplaces, (you already have about 10 happiness onees), 10 city wall types defences etc. THere would be so many that it would be impossible to build them all. Instead you would have to think about the levels of each effect you want in your civ at different stages in the game. Eg. IN ancient age you build 5 granary types buildings, and 3 marketplace type ones, and 2 luxury ones. In the next age, war sweeps the continent, so you build 4 defensive ones, and 2 knowledge ones, in the next age the sea becomes important etc. etc.
This also provides a fluid changing attribute model.

THE COMMON DENOMINATOR in all three of these models is that they all provide a flexible model for civ attributes, which the player selects throughout the game according to game situation and player STRATEGY. Perhaps one is better than another, perhaps a combination of both or all three will be best. Whatever the situation, any one of these is better than the existing civ which seriously neglects STRATEGY, when it calls itself a STRATEGY game. The only strategy in civ is in the tech tree. These three models, my friends, is what STRATEGY and thus CIVILIZATION is all about!

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-10-2001 09:44 PM I think your idea is crap LOTM How can you have a grassland civ? You will have more than 10 cities in most games and these will be all over the geographical map. Some in grasslands, some near the sea, some surrounded by gold mountains. It cannot work. Don't waive a bit from our stance. NO UNICS!

You would give the civ charecteristics based on where it started. Now to give it late game charecteristics, say to give the germans good armour based on a grassland start, makes no sense i agree. But it would not be unreasonable to, say give someone who started on the steppes of ukraine better or cheaper or easier to research horsemen. and that might leas them in a direction toward armour. Although I dont think thats quite what the Unique civ crowd has in mind.

alternatively you could re-assess a civ periodically. How many of its population live within one square of the sea? England would be a nautical civ, but if it follows a Henry V strategy and conquers France, it probably becomes a land civ. Alternatively if France only builds up coastal cities, it becomes a nautical civ.

Although I agree, this is beginning to sound too complicated and probably unworkable.

I would hope this could be something the civ community (And especially the Firaxians) could chew on. I think it points even more strongly to what is wrong with AOE style race attributes for Civ.

LOTM

[Sirotnikov]

I still say that unique wonders or research paths are the only possible successfull and realistic ways to make unique civs work.

Otherwise, leave it alone!!!

I think that the game can't know whether I'm a land or a sea type civ just if I start on a coast. I could settle my island and play isolated perfectionist without needing ships, and owuld much rather have science bonuses. If I start on a big mainland I might accidentally not explore the land and go off to settle across many islands insted, so horsemen won't help.

However, if I'm presented with options to change my stats it is the best possible solution. If I like sea, I'll research more sea techs and build more sea wonders, some permanent and some not, just like the ones in Civ 3.

Sirotnikov.

[Gammaray fan]

Everyone is arguing about things I have posted a solution on just 3 or so posts above this one. Why don't youse all go an read my 3 solutions and then come back with 'nah thats a crap idea' - Because LOTM ideas ARE crap.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion!

[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by Gammaray fan on 05-13-2001 01:16 AM Everyone is arguing about things I have posted a solution on just 3 or so posts above this one. Why don't youse all go an read my 3 solutions and then come back with 'nah thats a crap idea' - Because LOTM ideas ARE crap. Then we can have an intelligent discussion!

You're post is too long
devide it into more paragraphs ....

[Grumbold]

Basing your preferences on your surrounding terrain (not just the one start tile) is an interesting idea and gives you the ability to slowly influence it with terraforming. Chopping down all the forests to make farms for big cities could become less strategically sound if it improved your horsemen but ruined your ability to build ships or archers, for instance.