Which civs should be in?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Mathphysto
...And the Celts had their butts whooped on their own turf just like so many other cultures around the world. One could make a better argument for the Gauls or Huns as being significant in history
Carthaginians (I was tempted to put the Phoenicians instead, but they were really just Mediterranean middle men, and made money doing so)
Muslims (not really a civ, but Mohammed's Jihad was very crucial to history)

Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...

The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...

Muslims (do you mean Arabs?) not a civ?! Read the news, you might notice that they are gargantuan on the world scale, have impacted history is ways only dreamable by many of the popularly listed european civs, were at the forefront of intellectual developments for centuries (altho this last has languished in our time somewhat).

Sorry, thought I ought to point this out...

[Wernazuma III]

I can't accept my dear Mexica (Aztec is a very wrong name) are not wanted by some of you. Those Maya losers were conquered by those who were too weak to resist us chichimecs.

My humble list:

Europe:
Spanish
French
English
Germans
Romans
Greeks
Russians
Normans
Portuguese

Asia:
Arabs
Jews
Turks
Mongols
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Babylonians
Persians

Africa:
Egyptians
Ethiopians
Mali
Zulu

Pacific:
Polynesians

Americas:
Americans
Toltecs
Mexica (Aztecs)
Mayans
Inca

What would make 28civs, 7colors, 4 choices each.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq


Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...

The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...

...

correct that phoenicians settled Carthage.

incorrect that phoeniecians were Minoans.
Phoenicians were semites, canaanites in particular. As, essentially were hebrews, who share language and culture with the canaanite/phoenicians, except for hebrews monotheist relgion. (and even there hebrew names for God come from the canaanite pantheon)

carthage is latinization of kart hadash - new town.

In modern Hebrew - kiryat hadash.

All (Hebrews, canaanites, phoenicians,) were apparently descended from early bronze age ugaritic/ebla civilization.

No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.

LOTM

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.

LOTM

You have it all mixed up LOTM.

If you want to go to the dawn of the birth of the greek nation mycenaeans and then later minoans (two different things) were two of the seven ancient races of greeks. (and later dorians, ionians etc etc)

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by paiktis22


You have it all mixed up LOTM.

If you want to go to the dawn of the birth of the greek nation mycenaeans and then later minoans (two different things) were two of the seven ancient races of greeks. (and later dorians, ionians etc etc)

The minoans are an older culture than mycaeneans. Mycaeneans conquered most of crete after the decline of the minoans. Well, I don't want to destroy your national sense of ethnogenesis but minoans and mycaeneans were both pre-indo-european peoples and were by nothing related to the later coming tribes. But of course they are a good part of the ferment of later greeks (I've heard the theory that among the Ionians, Dorians and Achaians the Ionians probably were most mixed with pre-indoarian populace).

[C. Gerhardt]

I agree with Wernazuma III.

To add to this discussion, the Minoans where overrun by the Mycaeneans from Greece.

There are also discussions about the Minoans being the original inhabitants of Atlantis.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
What would make 28civs, 7colors, 4 choices each.

My guess is that the Firaxians are keeping the numder of CIV's (17 as I've understood from somewhere around here) down becuse of the work they have to do on the 3D diplomatic heralds.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by C. Gerhardt
I agree with Wernazuma III.
To add to this discussion, the Minoans where overrun by the Mycaeneans from Greece.

But is this a relevant discussion. Do we really want them in ??

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


The minoans are an older culture than mycaeneans. Well, I don't want to destroy your national sense of ethnogenesis

After so many years ethnogenesis doesn't really matter now does it

But why do you insist on something that's wrong? Who do you call the Mycaeneans? Are we using the same word for two different people? The Mykines as is the word were living in the south east aegean islands long before the minoans. The first known people ever to inhabit the area, metriarchship, fertility statues etc etc?

[Bereta_Eder]

I just looked at the dictionary: Mykines IS mycenaeans. SO sorry but you are certaintly wrong.

Minoan culture started somewhere between 1600 bc
Mycenaenas came to the scene anywhere between 3000 and 2000 bc.

Also, the seven ancient races of greeks include both. It's not my word of the greek ethnogenesis but the one of historians, mostly western historians for that matter.

[C. Gerhardt]

Sorry, but your wrong.

Both Minoans and Mycaeneans started ad approx. 3000 bc, but the Minoans where destroyed by the Mycaeneans approx. 1450 bc.

If you don´t believe me, check out www.historial.homestead.com

No further comment.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by paiktis22
After so many years ethnogenesis doesn't really matter now does it
But why do you insist on something that's wrong? Who do you call the Mycaeneans? Are we using the same word for two different people? The Mykines as is the word were living first known people ever to inhabit the area in the south east aegean islands long before the minoans. The , metriarchship, fertility statues etc etc?

For those who wanna go there.
Mycene is a tiny village on the eastern peloponnesos, about three hours bussing form Athens. The archeological site is of mediocre interest, a bit too much a rubble of stones. And the youth hostel is really very very very basic. In the village itself is really nothing else to do then . . . hang around and booze ????. I've helped picking fresh oranges there (november it was).
The palace of Minos (King of the minoans) was the home of the Minotaurus which lived in the maze of king Minos. It lies about half an hour south by citybus out of Heraklion city on the isle of Crete. It's really worthwhile seeing because it's being "restored" early 20th century by an english archeologist. In the neighbourhood of the youth hostel are lots of good value restaurants. There is a great musem on the minoan culture in Heraklion and the city itself is rather nice too.

[Keygen]

Paiktis22, the Minoans rised before Mycenaeans in the greater area of Greece. Minoans appeared in Crete aproximately in 3000 BC and flourished between 1800 and 1500 BC. The Mycenaeans seems to have appeared mainly in Paloponessos aproximately in 2000 BC. After the volcanic eruption of Thira (Santorini) the Minoans got into decadence until they were conquered by the Mycenaeans.

I don't know whether the Minoans were Greeks or not but they might have been as the theory of Indo-Europinian race isn't confirmed. It bases its speculation entirely in the reletion between the languages many nations had developed. No archeological or anthropological evidence has ever been found. All of the modern western Europian languages have come from the Latins but it's well known that they are not Romans .

When you go far back in time it is difficult to identify what the truth is...


As for the original subject I think it would be more fair to include the Celts than the Zulus as they have contributed much more in history and inhabited the entire Western Europe for more than a thousand years.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Vrank Prins
For those who wanna go there.
Mycene is a tiny village on the eastern peloponnesos, about three hours bussing form Athens. The archeological site is of mediocre interest, a bit too much a rubble of stones. And the youth hostel is really very very very basic. In the village itself is really nothing else to do then . . . hang around and booze ????. I've helped picking fresh oranges there (november it was).

But they were warlike. What did you expected? Acropolis? For the time they rised they had a developed civilization much more advanced than the rest Europian civilization at that time . Not to mentioned the disaster their buildings had suffered from wars and time...

Besides the Piramids of Egypt are a bunch of rocks too but they are an evidence of a great ancient civilization .