Geneve Conventions & International Law in Civ3

[OrangeSfwr]

The Aztec ritual of human sacrifice was not convenient. It was religious. it was to appease the God's, not to extreminate a rival race.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Par4]

I'm glad I'm not an Aztec POW I don't want my heart ripped out while its still beating then be thrown down the huge pyramid.

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[OrangeSfwr]

Wow Par, you know about Aztec rituals? Pretty sick stuff. Glad to be an American (not really, but I'd rather be an American than a Aztec POW. I'd rather be Jewish in a Nazi camp than be an Aztec POW)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Az]

Apolyton.net , I'm back ! ok I haven't been to here for some time now , but now I am fully operational again .
Really sorry for that long legal stuff ... but I guess that if I want to make a point I won't be able to just do it with : " hmmp... like that ... eeee .... for example .. eee... " so I just did that copy paste ritual .... hmmmp ... makes me think ... maybe I should just place links next time :/

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-10-2000 11:43 PM. I'd rather be Jewish in a Nazi camp than be an Aztec POW)

1)
2) well gasing to death and making you tear your neck in a vain attempt of grasping an unexisting tip of air isn't much better of lying tied and feeling the enourmous pain of a power that turns your own body , YOU , into ashes.( wow what a description ..brrrr)

but about the topic . you should be able to send POWs , and regular prisoners and transform them into... like formers . can build , but cant settle ... or maybe they could even settle ... like Ozies ( austalians )

P.S. off-topic : England-Portugal 2:3 . a great game it was , right ?

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Prepare to Land !

[abuzayd]

quote: The Aztec ritual of human sacrifice was not convenient. It was religious. it was to appease the God's, not to extreminate a rival race.

This is true; bloodletting formed a very important part of both the Aztec and Mayan religious life. Human sacrifice was but an extreme (and highly public) form of this; there was also lots of personal bloodletting going on as a form of piety. The king, for example, was supposed to draw his own blood in a number of ceremonies, often by perforating his own genitalia. For a good book on this in the ritual life of the Maya, see Freidel, Schele, and Parker's Maya cosmos.

In fact, in the case of Aztecs, I believe, the need for sacrificial victims grew so much that they would start wars just to get more of them.

Back to the subject of POWs, I'm still not sure how this could be reflected in Civ-3 without enacting some radical changes to the way combat works. Units would have to have some kind of morale rating, which, when it became too low, would cause them to surrender. Would that fit w/the strategic scale of Civ??

[OrangeSfwr]

That's exactly what I was had imagined, only expand it and take that slave and give some options..

1) Return to Civ (after a cease fire or peace treaty)
2) Human Sacrifice (good in beginning, bad at end)
3) POW (extra production)

Thanks for the info Quartz!

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[OrangeSfwr]

Dalgetti - let me start by apologizing. I meant no disrespect to the horrible death that many Jewish (and other) people found in Nazi Germany. I have done a lot of research on the subject and I meant no disrespect. "Night" is a great first hand look at the horrors of the camps. I didn't want you to get the wrong idea, I'm not ignorant.

Abyzayd - yes, I understand that it may be a hard concept to implement in Civ 3, so maybe it's not the right time. But if Firaxis was considering a radical change in the war element of the game, I would definitely suggest including it. Glad to see you know your stuff about Aztecs and Mayans. I'm fascinated by it (among many other things in History) Any comments on the morale/POW topic?



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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Quartz Dragon]

CTP has the trick early game trick of including a slaver in your armies. When you win a battle, each enemy unit turns into a slave at your nearest city.

[abuzayd]

Quartz -- I'm not familiar with CTP, so could you (or anyone) maybe clarify how a slave functions in that game? Free production??

OrangeSfwr -- Now that I think about it, in SMAC, they've got a pretty complex morale model, and you have a chance of capturing some (alien) units, which I think is determined by morale. Maybe a simple solution would be to make it so that in every combat there is a chance (determined by the morale of the defending unit) that the unit will be captured instead of destroyed. Then, as you suggest, the player would have a choice as to what to do with the units:

(1) enslave them (requires advance "Slave system", functions like CTP).

(2) human sacrifice (requires advance "Blood sacrifice" increases morale of city??)

(3) POW (requires "Geneva convention" ... units returned at end of hostilities)

I think the Geneva convention should be neither advance nor wonder, but something actually worked out diplomatically among the players (see the Planetary Council in SMAC). Of course, failure to sign on would mean that your units would become slaves... something like that happened to Russian soldiers in the Second World War, because Stalin refused to recognize the Convention.

p.s. my interest in Mayan stuff came out of reading the Popol Vuh... what a weird, cool, story!
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 14, 2000).]

[Az]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-13-2000 12:06 PM Dalgetti - let me start by apologizing. I meant no disrespect to the horrible death that many Jewish (and other) people found in Nazi Germany. I have done a lot of research on the subject and I meant no disrespect. "Night" is a great first hand look at the horrors of the camps. I didn't want you to get the wrong idea, I'm not ignorant.

oh ... no need apologize . from meeting you in the other threads I know you ain't that kinda guy . but thnx anyway.

about that ritual sacrifise thing as I know it was made in such small scales ( of POWs , anyway ) that it isn't worth mentioning . if even 1 human sacrifice is made during the day how can that affect a whole CIV ?

PoWs should be placed in camps and make some things.... like working in the fields in the mines etc.


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Prepare to Land !

P.S.
Slaves in CTP :
slaves are captured by slavers from unwalled cities or settler unit . slaves are also taken when a slaver is present during the fight in the Victor's army. the slaves are the transferred to the closest city that can accept them. the only problem with getting slaves is that each 3 slaves demand 1 military unit to guard them . if that military unit leaves a slave revolt occurs.
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited June 14, 2000).]

[OrangeSfwr]

Because Civ is turned based, and each turn is about 100 years (in the beginning when human sacrifice would be more predominant), human sacrifice would be beneficial to primitive civs because a massive number of people could be killed in that time period. It would only add one happiness when you do it, and it would only last for that turn (basically increasing tax and luxury output?) But there should be a system for it and I agree that it might not be used that often in the game. More likely POWs will become slaves or be held to affect other civ cities, causing discontent and revolt.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
"Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"

[Az]

well I thought about that idea again , and i just keep imagining this pic over and over again ....
upkeep cost = temple :
1 gold
1 PoW

that's kinda scary ......

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Prepare to Land !

[Markus The Mighty]

Why not tying those "enslave/sacrifice/pow" actions to some technologies? (i think it's already mentioned above, but i just wanted to repeat it ;-))
The idea of reaching International Laws by diplomacy sounds not bad, tough. Why not dealing with this like in SMAC:
e.g. by researching "Advanced Military Algorithms", you gain the ability of getting rid of the UN Charta
Why not turning this effect into reverse and make, lets say, a technology like "International Conventions" (just an idea), and by researching this technology you gain the ability of signing multi-national contracts concerning the abolition of slavery/sacrifice. (and maybe also the returning of slaves or PoWs to their civ)

[abuzayd]

quote: Why not turning this effect into reverse and make, lets say, a technology like "International Conventions" (just an idea), and by researching this technology you gain the ability of signing multi-national contracts concerning the abolition of slavery/sacrifice.

Great idea -- perhaps "Internationalism" (??) But a question: would every civ need this to convene a "League of Nations" or only one?

I could picture a situation in which only two or three civs are advanced enough to acquire "Internationalism," and start dictating things for the rest.... like the Paris treaty at the end of WWI.

[Sirotnikov]

blah, many ideas posted by crazy people which haven't been driven to the fullest.