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  • Geneve Conventions & International Law in Civ3

    What do you think about international law and military atrocities in Civ 3? plz post.

    anyway:
    I am posting here some of the things I found , if you find some more of them plz, post.


    CONVENTION

    for the pacific settlement of international disputes


    His Majesty the German Emperor, King of Prussia; the President of
    the United States of America; the President of the Argentine Republic;
    His Majesty the Emperor of Austria, King of Bohemia, etc., and Apostolic
    King of Hungary; His Majesty the King of the Belgians; the President of
    the Republic of Bolivia; the President of the Republic of the United
    States of Brazil; His Royal Highness the Prince of Bulgaria; the
    President of the Republic of Chile; His Majesty the Emperor of China; the
    President of the Republic of Colombia; the Provisional Governor of the
    Republic of Cuba; His Majesty the King of Denmark; the President of the
    Dominican Republic; the President of the Republic of Ecuador; His Majesty
    the King of Spain; the President of the French Republic; His Majesty the
    King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the
    British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India; His Majesty the King
    of the Hellenes; the President of the Republic of Guatemala; the
    President of the Republic of Haiti; His Majesty the King of Italy; His
    Majesty the Emperor of Japan; His Royal Highness the Grand Duke of
    Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau; the President of the United States of Mexico;
    His Royal Highness the Prince of Montenegro; the President of the
    Republic of Nicaragua; His Majesty the King of Norway; the President of
    the Republic of Panama; the President of the Republic of Paraguay; Her
    Majesty the Queen of the Netherlands; the President of the Republic of
    Peru; His Imperial Majesty the Shah of Persia; His Majesty the King of
    Roumania; His Majesty the Emperor of All the Russias; the President of
    the Republic of Salvador; His Majesty the King of Servia; His Majesty the
    King of Siam; His Majesty the King of Sweden; the Swiss Federal Council;
    His Majesty the Emperor of the Ottomans; the President of the Oriental
    Republic of Uruguay; the President of the United States of Venezuela;

    Animated by the sincere desire to work for the maintenance of
    general peace;

    Resolved to promote by all the efforts in their power the friendly
    settlement of international disputes;

    Recognizing the solidarity uniting the members of the society of
    civilized nations;

    Desirous of extending the empire of law and of strengthening the
    appreciation of international justice;

    Convinced that the permanent institution of a Tribunal of
    Arbitration accessible to all, in the midst of independent Powers, will
    contribute effectively to this result;

    Having regard to the advantages attending the general and regular
    organization of the procedure of arbitration;

    Sharing the opinion of the august initiator of the International
    Peace Conference that it is expedient to record in an International
    Agreement the principles of equity and right on which are based the
    security of States and the welfare of peoples;

    Being desirous, with this object, of insuring the better working
    in practice of Commissions of Inquiry and Tribunals of Arbitratio

    CONVENTION (II) WITH RESPECT TO
    THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND
    (HAGUE, II) (29 Jul 1899)

    Entry into Force: 4 September 1900

    His Majesty the Emperor of Germany, King of Prussia; [etc.]:

    Considering that, while seeking means to preserve peace and prevent armed
    conflicts among nations, it is likewise necessary to have regard to cases
    where an appeal to arms may be caused by events which their solicitude
    could not avert;

    Animated by the desire to serve, even in this extreme hypothesis, the
    interest of humanity and the ever increasing requirements of
    civilization;

    Thinking it important, with this object, to revise the laws and general
    customs of war, either with the view of defining them more precisely, or
    of laying down certain limits for the purpose of modifying their severity
    as far as possible;

    Inspired by these views which are enjoined at the present day, as they
    were twenty-five years ago at the time of the Brussels Conference in
    1874, by a wise and generous foresight;

    Have, in this spirit, adopted a great number of provisions, the object of
    which is to define and govern the usages of war on land.

    In view of the High Contracting Parties, these provisions, the wording of
    which has been inspired by the desire to diminish the evils of war so far
    as military necessities permit, are destined to serve as general rules of
    conduct for belligerents in their relations with each other and with
    populations.

    It has not, however, been possible to agree forthwith on provisions
    embracing all the circumstances which occur in practice.

    On the other hand, it could not be intended by the High Contracting
    Parties that the cases not provided for should, for want of a written
    provision, be left to the arbitrary judgment of the military Commanders.

    Until a more complete code of the laws of war is issued, the High
    Contracting Parties think it right to declare that in cases not included
    in the Regulations adopted by them, populations and belligerents remain
    under the protection and empire of the principles of international law,
    as they result from the usages established between civilized nations,
    from the laws of humanity, and the requirements of the public conscience;

    They declare that it is in this sense especially that Articles 1 and 2 of
    the Regulations adopted must be understood;

    The High Contracting Parties, desiring to conclude a Convention to this
    effect, have appointed as their Plenipotentiaries, to wit:

    [Here follow the names of plenipotentiaries.]


    Who, after communication of their full powers, found in good and due
    form, have agreed on the following:


    Article 1

    The High Contracting Parties shall issue instructions to their armed land
    forces, which shall be in conformity with the "Regulations respecting the
    Laws and Customs of War on Land" annexed to the present Convention.

    Article 2

    The provisions contained in the Regulations mentioned in Article 1 are
    only binding on the Contracting Powers, in case of war between two or
    more of them.

    These provisions shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war
    between Contracting Powers, a non-Contracting Power joins one of the
    belligerents.

    Article 3

    The present Convention shall be ratified as speedily as possible. The
    ratifications shall be deposited at the Hague.

    A procÅ s-verbal shall be drawn up recording the receipt of each
    ratification, and a copy, duly certified, shall be sent through the
    diplomatic channel, to all the Contracting Powers.

    Article 4

    Non-Signatory Powers are allowed to adhere to the present Convention.

    For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting
    Powers by means of a written notification, addressed to the Netherland
    Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

    Article 5

    In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the
    present Convention, such denunciation would not take effect until a year
    after the written notification made to the Netherland Government, and by
    it at once communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

    This denunciation shall affect only the notifying Power.

    In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present
    Convention and affixed their seals thereto.

    Done at the Hague the 29th July 1899, in a single copy, which shall be
    kept in the archives of the Netherland Government, and copies of which,
    duly certified, shall be delivered to the Contracting Powers through the
    diplomatic channel.

    [Here follow signatures.]

    Annex to the Convention

    REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND

    SECTION I.--ON BELLIGERENTS

    CHAPTER I.--On the Qualifications of Belligerents

    Article 1

    The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to
    militia and volunteer corps, fulfilling the following conditions:

    1. To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    2. To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
    3. To carry arms openly; and
    4. To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs
    of war.
    In countries where militia or volunteer corps constitute the army, or
    form part of it, they are included under the denomination "army."

    Article 2

    The population of a territory which has not been occupied who, on the
    enemy's approach, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading
    troops without having time to organize themselves in accordance with
    Article 1, shall be regarded a belligerent, if they respect the laws and
    customs of war.

    Article 3

    The armed forces of the belligerent parties may consist of combatants
    and non-combatants. In case of capture by the enemy both have a right to
    be treated as prisoners of war.


    CHAPTER II.--On Prisoners of War

    Article 4

    Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not
    in that of the individuals or crops who captured them.
    They must be humanely treated.
    All their personal belongings, except arms, horses, and military
    papers remain their property.

    Article 5

    Prisoners of war may be interned in a town, fortress, camp, or any
    other locality, and bound not to go beyond certain fixed limits; but they
    can only be confined as an indispensable measure of safety.

    Article 6

    The State may utilize the labor of prisoners of war according to their
    rank and aptitude. Their tasks shall not be excessive, and shall have
    nothing to do with the military operations.
    Prisoners may be authorized to work for the Public Service, for
    private persons, or on their own account.
    Work done for the State shall be paid for according to the tariffs in
    force for soldiers of the national army employed on similar tasks.
    When the work is for other branches of the Public Service or for
    private persons, the conditions shall be settled in agreement with the
    military authorities.
    The wages of the prisoners shall go towards improving their position,
    and the balance shall be paid them at the time of their release, after
    deducting the cost of their maintenance.

    Article 7

    The Government into whose hands prisoners of war have fallen is bound
    to maintain them.
    Failing a special agreement between the belligerents, prisoners of war
    shall be treated as regards food, quarters, and clothing, on the same
    footing as the troops of the Government which has captured them.

    Article 8

    Prisoners of war shall be subject to the laws, regulations, and orders
    in force in the army of the State into whose hands they have fallen.
    Any act of insubordination warrants the adoption, as regards them, of
    such measures of severity as may be necessary.
    Escaped prisoners, recaptured before they have succeeded in rejoining
    their army, or before quitting the territory occupied by the army that
    captured them, are liable to disciplinary punishment.
    Prisoners who, after succeeding in escaping are again taken prisoners,
    are not liable to any punishment for the previous flight.

    Article 9

    Every prisoner of war, if questioned, is bound to declare his true
    name and rank, and if he disregards this rule, he is liable to a
    curtailment of the advantages accorded to the prisoners of war of his
    class.

    Article 10

    Prisoners of war may be set at liberty on parole if the laws of their
    country authorize it, and, in such a case, they are bound, on their
    personal honor, scrupulously to fulfill, both as regards their own
    Government and the Government by whom they were made prisoners, the
    engagements they have contracted.
    In such cases, their own Government shall not require of nor accept
    from them any service incompatible with the parole given.

    Article 11

    A prisoner of war can not be forced to accept his liberty on parole;
    similarly the hostile Government is not obliged to assent to the
    prisoner's request to be set at liberty on parole.

    Article 12

    Any prisoner of war, who is liberated on parole and recaptured,
    bearing arms against the Government to whom he had pledged his honor, or
    against the allies of that Government, forfeits his right to be treated
    as a prisoner of war, and can be brought before the Courts.

    Article 13

    Individuals who follow an army without directly belonging to it, such
    as newspaper correspondents and reporters, sutlers, contractors, who fall
    into the enemy's hands, and whom the latter think fit to detain, have a
    right to be treated as prisoners of war, provided they can produce a
    certificate from the military authorities of the army they were
    accompanying.

    Article 14

    A Bureau for information relative to prisoners of war is instituted,
    on the commencement of hostilities, in each of the belligerent States,
    and, when necessary, in the neutral countries on whose territory
    belligerents have been received. This Bureau is intended to answer all
    inquiries about prisoners of war, and is furnished by the various
    services concerned with all the necessary information to enable it to
    keep an individual return for each prisoner of war. It is kept informed
    of interments and changes, as well as of admissions into hospital and
    deaths.
    It is also the duty of the Information Bureau to receive and collect
    all objects of personal use, valuables, letters, etc., found on the
    battlefields or left by prisoners who have died in hospital or ambulance,
    and to transmit them to those interested.

    Article 15

    Relief Societies for prisoners of war, which are regularly constituted
    in accordance with the law of the country with the object of serving as
    the intermediary for charity, shall receive from the belligerents for
    themselves and their duly accredited agents every facility, within the
    bounds of military requirements and Administrative Regulations, for the
    effective accomplishment of their humane task. Delegates of these
    Societies may be admitted to the places of interment for the distribution
    of relief, as also to the halting places of repatriated prisoners, if
    furnished with a personal permit by the military authorities, and on
    giving an engagement in writing to comply with all their Regulations for
    order and police.

    Article 16

    The Information Bureau shall have the privilege of free postage.
    Letters, money orders, and valuables, as well as postal parcels destined
    for the prisoners of war or dispatched by them, shall be free of all
    postal duties both in the countries of origin and destination, as well as
    in those they pass through.
    Gifts and relief in kind for prisoners of war shall be admitted free
    of all duties of entry and others, as well as of payments for carriage by
    the Government railways.

    Article 17

    Officers taken prisoners may receive, if necessary, the full pay
    allowed them in this position by their country's regulations, the amount
    to be repaid by their Government.

    Article 18

    Prisoners of war shall enjoy every latitude in the exercise of their
    religion, including attendance at their own church services, provided
    only they comply with the regulations for order and police issued by the
    military authorities.

    Article 19

    The wills of prisoners of war are received or drawn up on the same
    conditions as for soldiers of the National Army.
    The same rules shall be observed regarding death certificates, as well
    as for the burial of prisoners of war, due regard being paid to their
    grade and rank.

    Article 20

    After the conclusion of peace, the repatriation of prisoners of war
    shall take place as speedily as possible.


    CHAPTER III. -- On the Sick and Wounded

    Article 21

    The obligations of belligerents with regard to the sick and wounded
    are governed by the Geneva Convention of the 22nd August, 1864, [FN:5 TS
    377, ante] subject to any modifications which may be introduced into it.


    SECTION II. -- ON HOSTILITIES

    CHAPTER I. -- On means of injuring the Enemy, Sieges, and Bombardments

    Article 22

    The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not
    unlimited.

    Article 23

    Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is
    especially prohibited:--

    (a.) To employ poison or poisoned arms;
    (b.) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the
    hostile nation or army;
    (c.) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down arms, or having no
    longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
    (d.) to declare that no quarter will be given;
    (e.) To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause
    superfluous injury;
    (f.) To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or
    military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive
    badges of the Geneva Convention;
    (g.) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction
    or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.

    Article 24

    Ruses of war and the employment of methods necessary to obtain
    information about the enemy and the country, are considered allowable.

    Article 25

    The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings
    which are not defended, is prohibited.

    Article 26

    The Commander of an attacking force, before commencing a bombardment,
    except in the case of an assault, should do all he can to warn the
    authorities.

    Article 27

    In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to
    spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and
    charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected,
    provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes.
    The besieged should indicate these buildings or places by some
    particular and visible signs, which should previously be notified to the
    assailants.

    Article 28

    The pillage of a town or place, even when taken by assault, is
    prohibited.


    CHAPTER II. -- On Spies

    Article 29

    An individual can only be considered a spy if, acting clandestinely,
    or on false pretences, he obtains, or seeks to obtain information in the
    zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating
    it to the hostile party.
    Thus, soldiers not in disguise who have penetrated into the zone of
    operations of a hostile army to obtain information are not considered
    spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or
    civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery
    of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the
    enemy. To this class belong likewise individuals sent in balloons to
    deliver despatches, and generally to maintain communication between the
    various parts of an army or a territory.

    Article 30

    A spy taken in the act cannot be punished without previous trial.

    Article 31

    A spy who, after rejoining the army to which he belongs, is
    subsequently captured by the enemy, is treated as a prisoner of war, and
    incurs no responsibility for his previous acts of espionage.


    CHAPTER III -- On Flags of Truce

    Article 32

    An individual is considered a parlementaire who is authorized by one
    of the belligerents to enter into communication with the other, and who
    carries a white flag. He has a right to inviolability, as well as the
    trumpeter, bugler, or drummer, the flag-bearer, and the interpreter who
    may accompany him.

    Article 33

    The Chief to whom a flag of truce is sent is not obliged to receive it
    in all circumstances.
    He can take all steps necessary to prevent the envoy taking advantage
    of his mission to obtain information.
    In case of abuse, he has the right to detain the envoy temporarily.

    Article 34

    The envoy loses his rights of inviolability if it is proved beyond
    doubt that he has taken advantage of his privileged position to provoke
    or commit an act of treachery.


    CHAPTER IV. -- On Capitulations

    Article 35

    Capitulations agreed on between the Contracting Parties must be in
    accordance with the rules of military honor.
    When once settled, they must be scrupulously observed by both the
    parties.


    CHAPTER V. -- On Armistices

    Article 36

    An armistice suspends military operations by mutual agreement between
    the belligerent parties. If its duration is not fixed, the belligerent
    parties can resume operations at any time, provided always the enemy is
    warned within the time agreed upon, in accordance with the terms of the
    armistice.

    Article 37

    An armistice may be general or local. The first suspends all military
    operations of the belligerent States; the second, only those between
    certain fractions of the belligerent armies and in a fixed radius.

    Article 38

    An armistice must be notified officially, and in good time, to the
    competent authorities and the troops. Hostilities are suspended
    immediately after the notification, or at a fixed date.

    Article 39

    It is for the Contracting Parties to settle, in the terms of the
    armistice, what communications may be held, on the theatre of war, with
    the population and with each other.

    Article 40

    Any serious violation of the armistice by one of the parties gives the
    other party the right to denounce it, and even, in case of urgency, to
    recommence hostilities at once.

    Article 41

    A violation of the terms of the armistice by private individuals
    acting on their own initiative, only confers the right of demanding the
    punishment of the offenders, and, if necessary, indemnity for the losses
    sustained.

    SECTION III. -- ON MILITARY AUTHORITY OVER HOSTILE TERRITORY

    Article 42

    Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the
    authority of the hostile army.
    The occupation applies only to the territory where such authority is
    established, and in a position to assert itself.

    Article 43

    The authority of the legitimate power having actually passed into the
    hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all steps in his power to
    re-establish and insure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
    while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the
    country.

    Article 44

    Any compulsion of the population of occupied territory to take part in
    military operations against its own country is prohibited.

    Article 45

    Any pressure on the population of occupied territory to take the oath
    to the hostile Power is prohibited.

    Article 46

    Family honors and rights, individual lives and private property, as
    well as religious convictions and liberty, must be respected.
    Private property cannot be confiscated.

    Article 47

    Pillage is formally prohibited.

    Article 48

    If, in the territory occupied, the occupant collects the taxes, dues,
    and tolls imposed for the benefit of the State, he shall do it, as far as
    possible, in accordance with the rules in existence and the assessment in
    force, and will in consequence be bound to defray the expenses of the
    administration of the occupied territory on the same scale as that by
    which the legitimate Government was bound.

    Article 49

    If, besides the taxes mentioned in the preceding Article, the occupant
    levies other money taxes in the occupied territory, this can only be for
    military necessities or the administration of such territory.

    Article 50

    No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, can be inflicted on the
    population on account of the acts of individuals for which it cannot be
    regarded as collectively responsible.

    Article 51

    No tax shall be collected except under a written order and on the
    responsibility of a Commander-in-Chief.
    This collection shall only take place, as far as possible, in
    accordance with the rules in existence and the assessment of taxes in
    force.
    For every payment a receipt shall be given to the taxpayer.

    Article 52

    Neither requisitions in kind nor services can be demanded from
    communes or inhabitants except for the necessities of the army of
    occupation. They must be in proportion to the resources of the country,
    and of such a nature as not to involve the population in the obligation
    of taking part in military operations against their country.
    These requisitions and services shall only be demanded on the
    authority of the Commander in the locality occupied.
    The contributions in kind shall, as far as possible, be paid for in
    ready money; if not, their receipt shall be acknowledged.

    Article 53

    An army of occupation can only take possession of the cash, funds, and
    property liable to requisition belonging strictly to the State, depots of
    arms, means of transport, stores and supplies, and, generally, all
    movable property of the State which may be used for military operations.
    Railway plant, land telegraphs, telephones, steamers, and other ships,
    apart from cases governed by maritime law, as well as depots of arms and,
    generally, all kinds of war material, even though belonging to Companies
    or to private persons, are likewise material which may serve for military
    operations, but they must be restored at the conclusion of peace, and
    indemnities paid for them.

    Article 54

    The plant of railways coming from neutral States, whether the property
    of those States, or of Companies, or of private persons, shall be sent
    back to them as soon as possible.

    Article 55

    The occupying State shall only be regarded as administrator and
    usufructuary of the public buildings, real property, forests, and
    agricultural works belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the
    occupied country. It must protect the capital of these properties, and
    administer it according to the rules of usufruct.

    Article 56

    The property of the communes, that of religious, charitable, and
    educational institutions, and those of arts and science, even when State
    property, shall be treated as private property.
    All seizure of, and destruction, or intentional damage done to such
    institutions, to historical monuments, works of art or science, is
    prohibited, and should be made the subject of proceedings.


    SECTION IV. -- ON THE INTERNMENT OF BELLIGERENTS
    AND THE CARE OF THE WOUNDED IN NEUTRAL COUNTRIES

    Article 57

    A neutral State which receives in its territory troops belonging to
    the belligerent armies shall intern them, as far as possible, at a
    distance from the theatre of war.
    It can keep them in camps, and even confine them in fortresses or
    locations assigned for this purpose.
    It shall decide whether officers may be left at liberty on giving
    their parole that they will not leave the neutral territory without
    authorization.

    Article 58

    Failing a special Convention, the neutral State shall supply the
    interned with the food, clothing, and relief required by humanity.
    At the conclusion of peace, the expenses caused by the internment
    shall be made good.

    Article 59

    A neutral State may authorize the passage through its territory of
    wounded or sick belonging to the belligerent armies, on condition that
    the trains bringing them shall carry neither combatants nor war material.
    In such a case, the neutral State is bound to adopt such measures of
    safety and control as may be necessary for the purpose.
    Wounded and sick brought under these conditions into neutral territory
    by one of the belligerents, and belonging to the hostile party, must be
    guarded by the neutral State, so as to insure their not taking part again
    in the military operations. The same duty shall devolve on the neutral
    State with regard to wounded or sick of the other army who may be
    committed to its care.

    Article 60

    The Geneva Convention applies to sick and wounded interned in neutral
    territory.

    ================================================== =====================
    An electronic publication of the MULTILATERALS PROJECT, Fletcher School
    of Law & Diplomacy --- http://www.tufts.edu/fletcher/multilaterals.html
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do not redistribute without this identifying credit.


    ------------------
    Prepare to Land !
    urgh.NSFW

  • #2
    Long legal document, eyes closing, must fight...

    I like the idea of implementing some form of conventions of war. However, it should be tied to the tech tree. It can't happen until certain forms of government and/or religion have been developed - mercy requires the development of a conscience. Perhaps make it a wonder?

    Comment


    • #3
      you think our conscious is a technology development of sorts? I'd strongly disagree but that comes from my religious background. Although I would agree that official convention's should be tied to the tech tree once society has reached the point where the people who follow their conscious have enough influence on the government that it appears the government has a conscious. I believe individuals have always had a God given conscious but that's another thread in another forum.

      Comment


      • #4
        quote:

        Originally posted by abuzayd on 06-08-2000 12:48 PM
        prisoners of war, something that doesn't appear in civ.


        Something that doesn't, but should!

        The thing you were talking about from SMAC could could tie in with the treatement of POWs. (For example: Imprisonment = OK...Forced Labor = bad...mass murder = VERY BAD) There should be a time (like during a Polythiestic religion or something) that POWs can be killed as "Human Sacrifices", which makes your citizens happy. (Example: Aztec and Mayan empires used Human Sacrifice before 1500s and Spanish conquest)

        Thoughts?

        ------------------
        ~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
        "Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!"
        [This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited June 08, 2000).]

        Comment


        • #5
          The one thing about war that I think has been missing from the other games, is that war should not always have to be about conquest. It can be about resolving conflicts, or enforcing treaties, etc. So occupation of a nation is only needed until you accomplish a goal, reach an agreement, etc.

          Comment


          • #6
            People need a mind, the populous won't fight a war they don't know what they are fighting for. You need to have a doctrine or something with a declaration of war with set objectives. People don't want to fight a 10 year war, just capture their capital and kick them out of our ally's country. Or capture this, or reduce industry to 20%.

            ------------------
            I use this email
            (stupid cant use hotmail)
            gamma_par4@hotmail.com
            Don't ask for golf tips
            Your game will get worse
            HappyLand

            Comment


            • #7
              quote:

              Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-08-2000 03:31 PM
              The thing you were talking about from SMAC could could tie in with the treatement of POWs. (For example: Imprisonment = OK...Forced Labor = bad...mass murder = VERY BAD)



              How would the POWs actually be reflected in gameplay, though? Would it mean introducing some kind of moral model (units surrendering themselves??)

              Comment


              • #8
                the irony of course being that this document stands at the beginning of the bloodiest century in human history... lest than twenty years from when it was signed teenagers were dying by the millions in the bloodsoaked trenches of eastern France...

                i'm curious how the Geneva convention would be reflected in Civ, though. as far as I understand it (sorry, i couldn't bring myself to actually read the posted text ), the convention governs the treatment of prisoners of war, something that doesn't appear in civ.

                SMAC afficionados know that the "UN Convention on Human Rights" pops up from time to time when you want to do certain actions that are considered atrocities -- obliterating a city is one of them. Of course, the convention almost always get repealed when Yang and Sister Miriam get powerful. but, anyway, it might be possible to have something like that in civ.

                Regarding international treaties and governance in general, it seems to me that part of the problem is the way civ is structured. As a model of what "civilization" is, civ uses what you might call the 19th and 20th century model of the nation state: a civilization is a uniform linguistic, ethnic, economic, and political unit. This, of course, reflects reality only in a rather limited fashion. The Roman empire was incredibly diverse and polyglot, not only this, but the definition of what "Roman" meant shifted from a purely ethnic (almost municipal) designation to something entirely different. Both the Byzantine and the Holy Roman Empires considered themselves in some way the continuation of the Roman Empire, yet the population of neither spoke Latin as a vernacular.

                As it was, so it shall be; and it seems to me that the notion of the nation-state won't be around much longer in the 21st century. Economic factions -- inherently global in outlook and ambition -- wield more actual power than many governments these days. And, of course, there's always the question of whether the U.N. will actually, as so many midwestern militia groups fear, begin to wield real governing power at some point in the future.

                My point is, that in civ, the object in civ *is* to unite the entire world under one flag: yours. How do you work the notion of increasing internationalization of government into this scheme, and still make it a playable game??

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                • #9
                  Capturing units - hmmm that's not a bad idea. Why does everyone have to die when they lose a battle, maybe after you destroy a rival unit you recieve P.O.W.s in your nearest city and depending on what you do with them, they can increase happiness (sacrifice), production (slaves), etc. Could be used in settlement of war. Could also make the rival civ's city recieve discontent. Could cause a push in that Civ to end the war. I suppose there are lots of directions to go with this, any comments?

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                  • #10
                    Okay, I know this is totally off topic, but has anyone else noticed that this thread (and only this thread) is wider than their browser window?

                    Any idea why?

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                    • #11
                      I don't get a wider window, but in other threads it's because of the title of the thread, its all on one line and streches out a bunch in some. SI thread does it to me.

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                      • #12
                        Spekter - YES! Infact I was wondering if anyone else noticed! Weird eh? I guess Par explained it...

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                        • #13
                          also if you have a really long word like say
                          aaaahx100 that will the the window really long and the other text moves to fit it so it is really hard to read.

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                          I use this email
                          (stupid cant use hotmail)
                          gamma_par4@hotmail.com
                          Don't ask for golf tips
                          Your game will get worse
                          HappyLand

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                          • #14
                            Sorry am getting off track still - but this thread title is fine for me 1024x768 in IE5.

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                            • #15
                              Okay, I figured it out. It's a combination of the font size I'm using (we old farts can't read all that little typing) and all those damn === in Dalgetti's initial post

                              Jumping back a bit, I think agent4043 misunderstood my first post. I wasn't trying to say that conscience should be a technology, but rather that people tend to be selfish bastards until their laws and/or beliefs have evolved to a certain point. For example, the Aztecs routinely slaughtered all prisoners of war in religious ceremonies. That was the only reason prisoners were taken. It wasn't merciful; it was convenient. If you had prisoners who could be slaughtered, it meant that you didn't have to kill your own people to fulfill your religious obligations. Can you see a civ at this stage of development going for a war convention of some sort?

                              quote:

                              The one thing about war that I think has been missing from the other games, is that war should not always have to be about conquest. It can be about resolving conflicts, or enforcing treaties, etc. So occupation of a nation is only needed until you accomplish a goal, reach an agreement, etc.


                              This is a neat idea. You should have to state your goals in a declaration of war. If you don't obtain or at least make progress towards obtaining these goals, your people will support the war less and less. Eventually congress or the senate or your nobles or whatever make peace behind your back. Ideally, your government should be overthrown at that point to enable this to happen.

                              As for capturing units, I think that anytime you attack a unit whose condition is in the red, they surrender instead of being wiped out. Ideally, if you treat prisoners well enough (or brainwash them sufficiently if you use some of the city improvements from SMAC), they might change sides at some point.

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