((** - Secret Police - **))

[Sirotnikov]

We have the spy, and the spy screen to manage intelligence and commit "security related special actions" in other states.

But how about your inner issues? Except martial law, which is a too weak in my opinion - there is no proper expression of secret police issues. How can one play a cold war scenario without NSA (CIA also) or KGB?
How can one revolt russia without the bolsheviks (I forgot the name of their actual police at the time)?
Imagine WWII germany without SA or SS?

We must come up with a good system to incorporate that into the game. I would like to see some suggestions and ideas about what, where, when, and how can we implement this.

I'll try to work on a definition, but i'm quite busy these days. I would like to see your ideas.

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Some text under a line.

[MidKnight Lament]

I'm better at asking the questions than giving answers to them too

Here's some from the old thread...

quote: What is their purpose? What actions can they perform? Do they operate both within your empire and outside of it? How much control do you have over them? What choices do they offer a player? Are there pluses and minuses to using them? Do they require special forms of government?

- MKL

"I'm OK. How are you? Thanks for asking, thanks for asking."

[The Joker]

A secret police force should definately be included. I do not have many ideas on how to do it at the moment, but is should be macromanaged, and NO WAY unitbased. There should be some screen where you could decide what to do to supress revolts in cities, get information on groups inside your civ trying to revolt, kill their leaders and try to find out which foreign power is supporting them.

[Earthling7]

More on that note, you should be able to assasinate foreign leaders and support anarchists in foreign civilizations. Currently you can incite a revolution in one city with a unit, purpose being to capture the city. How about a nationwide infiltration to get the whole nation into turmoil...

A revolting civ can be useful. Especially if used as a diplomatic weapon. This would be more tactical than conqeuring I guess...

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Greetings,
Earthling7
ICQ: 929768

[MidKnight Lament]

I was thinking they'd work internally within your civ. Have I misinterpreted here somewhere?

- MKL

[Stuff2]

Yep. Secret police should be included.
But i think that it should be a part of your intelligence. I think that the intelligence should take care of all your dirty affairs both within your borders and within other nations.

[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by Hendrik the Great on 04-17-2000 12:33 PM The SA and the SS in Nazi-Germany were not a secret police! They were the privat army of the NSDAP Party and later the personal body guard of hitler! SA stands for "Sicherheits Abteilung" which means as much as Security Department and SS stands for "Schutz Staffel" meaning something like Protection Corp. The real secret police was the "GESTAPO" (Geheime Staatspolizei) meaning Secret State Police.

You are right.
I stand corrected.
But what I meant, included partially the functionality of the SS. When the nazis conquered a place, the SS would "clean" the area of any one possibly resisting and anyone jewish.
The SA were as you said actually the force used by the party to secure it's position in the begining of it's road. It's functionality could be easily also included in the definition secret police.
Some historians claim, and I support that claim partially, that the Nazi state although seemed in order, was basically in a chaotical structure. Every job had two or more bodies taking care of it. The relevant parts for me are the gestapo and the SA, the army and the SS.

MKL, you are right, I did meant things like NSA -> [b]NATIONAL[b] -> [b]in[b] the nation, not out of it. But some of those functionalities colide with outer inteligence.

[Sirotnikov]

I just noticed your post Stuff2.

Maybe so. It will make life in CIV easier but almost every state has atleast two facilities. One for inner matters and one for outter matters.

I'm not sure about KGB. I'll find out.

[Hendrik the Great]

The SA and the SS in Nazi-Germany were not a secret police! They were the privat army of the NSDAP Party and later the personal body guard of hitler!
SA stands for "Sicherheits Abteilung" which means as much as Security Department and SS stands for "Schutz Staffel" meaning something like Protection Corp.

The real secret police was the "GESTAPO" (Geheime Staatspolizei) meaning Secret State Police.

[Sir Shiva]

Secret police should be controlled in the main intelligence screen... They would have to be budgeted just like your Espionage program..

Yes, they should be separate from your external affairs espionage, and could be controlled by a screen brought up from the espionage screen...

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[The Joker]

I agree that there should be an Intelligence screen from where you could do both foreign and domestic affairs. From there you could set how much to be spent on each program/mission etc.

[Patriqvium]

I join the call for a Intelligence screen.

[Adm.Naismith]

I often like to make some analisys of ideas like this, before writing down a reply :

1) Do we have a role into the game for "Secret Police" concept?

2) How is better to implement it?

Question 1) may have answers about keeping the population calm (avoid or stop revolts) and about counter enemy spies actions

About question 2, in CIV II/ SMAC we respond to these threats with

units
military units, units enhanced with "non-lethal method" (x2 police effects) or diplomat/spy/probe team

city improvement
Ok, there are many, but mostly dedicated are police stations and Punishment Spheres

government/Social engineering
Fundamentalism, Police state, etc.

actions
Nerve Stapling

wonders
Cure of Cancer, Longevity Vaccine, etc.

Now, apart from shifting the espionage role from units to a dedicated mission screen (I already agreed about this idea), I don't feel the need of any other main effort into this game area.

If Goverment choices (SMAC S.E.)will be available, local or nation wide Martial Law applicable (SMAC Nerve Stapling), I can only imagine Police (as Spy) units effects can shift to the Intelligence screen as Internal Affairs.

Not a big add to the game concept IMHO, only a redesign of the "interface" we will use to exercise that power.

Am I missing the whole point?

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Adm.Naismith AKA mcostant

[Sirotnikov]

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Secret Internal Affairs
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Police Functionality
======================

1. First of all, we need to build police stations. That's agreed upon.

2. Police Force
Rarely do we see army units chasing criminals down the street, and rarely do army forces keep the peace during demonstrations or protests.

Suggestions:
Micromanagement - Having "Police Units" that have x2 police effects, but little or no att/def
Macromanagement - Having a "Police Funding". It's like the espionage funding. The more you pay, the more people are quiet. Why is this unlike luxuries? Well, first of all it's more realistic that way. In the begining the police funding percentage is high and lux are pretty low. With time, and with more humain govt. forms or new social modes, we need to lower our police and higher our lux. Police under democratic govt. types (includes republic) would have a certain percentage it can not surpass. But dictator govts. allow 100%. When you need to wage war you spend more money on police.

Special Operations
====================

3. I have a one problematic city that gives me the hell! - or - I'm working on a projec that may caus unhappyness.

That's what the "Special Operations" button is for.
Instead of raising the police funfing that devides among all of your cities, you can concentrate a specific unusual sum to a certain operation with a click of a button.

Operation types:
Quieting down a city for X turns.
Securing the city from spy attacks for X turns
Making a city secret for X turns or forever. (more on that later)

Suggestions for new types of operations are welcome.

4. The secret city (/region?/unit?)

Do you think the american nation is ready to find out that the US govt. is experimenting with alien technology? making illegal scientific research?

Ever Dreamt about having a secret lab? A secret army base in nevada? Area 51? Area 52? I think we should be able to have a city concealed from the eyes of the public and the eyes of the nation and the eys of neighbouring nations. Of course it would cost ya.
You should make sure it is hidden in your empire otherwise enemy army units will bump into it first. you caould build special improvements in it:

underground facilities - won't get noticed by satellites or units passing in the adjustent square.
radar jammer - no enemy satellites or units with high vision range would notice the city or the units adjustent to it.

To make it fair, so no science cities or trade cities would be formed, the city would be unable to grow beyond size 5, unable to build things like banks, temples, markets, explorers, camels, engineers, palace (we wouldn't want to have an invisible capital, now would we?), stock exchange... suggestions are welcome!

With a click of a button you can do that. (I'm repeating my self)

Misc.
=======

5. Interrigation of POW's.

If we do decide to have POW's, why not interigate them?
The could be really usefull to discover placement of enemy towns / units / enemy's next target.
Have a button for that. (Is this a deziavou?)(Is this the correct spelling?)

6. Killing people.

Have you ever conquered an enemys city that was rioting? Was that city over populated? How would you like to make it "thiner"? Of course you can make elvises and make the city starve, but if there is enough food in the granary it could take years. Building a temple is hopeless (city revolt) and you spent your last cash on building another rifleman (I think they prefer rifle-person now ) to make sure you keep that city. Why not do that? It was very common always. It was used in a really mean way during WWII by the nazis but it's part of life. So, we have a way to 'thinen' popilation.

Do that with a .... No! not a button! I'm sick of buttons. Do it with a ... (oh my god) unit!!! Just kidding. No more micro-manage, chill out.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Have any more uses? POST THEM!!!
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(Edited to correct the button joke...)
[This message has been edited by Sirotnikov (edited April 19, 2000).]

[Sirotnikov]

Ahmm....
Please post new ideas or reviews!