Hey MarkG

[The Viceroy]

What your missing here, is that most modern games run using DirectX .. this is not a "WINDOW" environment .. you are given a screen, and direct access to it . TOT/SMAC/CTP1&2 are all DirectX products.

Even so, the Desktop is still there, sitting in the background .. you can usually ALT-TAB to it (as I do with NAPSTER & SMAC) .. unless its been disabled ... (always recommend you load the game last, so there is something to ALT TAB to), just hit the Windows key, if it doesn't

As for Chat, ICQ etc .. These would run so much smoother if only the main loop has a small, but appreciated SLEEP!! so we don't get 100% Process hog from the game, slowing every damn thing in the background. This is much more apparent in slower systems.

DirectX is much much faster than using a Windows "Window" .. and much more popular with games programmers, as it gives them control over the entire graphical display .. I would be suprised if CIV3 is not using DirectX.

[Adm.Naismith]

Good point about DirectX, but sometime ALT+Tab doesn't work on some system (may be because of short of memory, may be for others dark reasons... I don't know, but it's a problem I've seen quite often around here and others forum (at least, it was a problem with SMAC).

In another thread about the same argument, someone (sorry, I forget his/her nickname) suggested to build a game as "system polite" as possible, to manage audio and screen (and any other PC resource) without hogging all for itself.
I hope someone at Firaxis care about it, as for Win2000 (and probably XP) compatibility: Microsoft is forcing us to these OS, better the game developers will take it into account, no more "Win 9x only" label on the game box/site support!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[rah]

Yes, I always start civ last so I have something to alt-tab out of. But even so I would prefer a windowed game. It would make things easier.

RAH

[markusf]

ok then, how does ULTIMA manage to do it? I am pretty sure they are using direct x as well, and it runs in windowed mode.

[The Viceroy]

HI Markusf,

It certainly did not run in a Window provided by Windows (if it was dx).. as Direct X uses its own set of libraries for direct access to the screen .. which is why its far faster that the Window provided by Windows

However, it would theoretically be possible to provide a screen which is smaller than the desktop, which has its own set of programmed controls, so the user can move it about etc .. But basically, the software house would have to re-write all the functions you have on a standard window .. to make it look like it was one ..

So maybe it is theoretically possible, but I really can't see any software house spending there time writing code to do this, when the only perceivable benefit is, you can run ICQ & chat at the same time .. especially more so, as you can ALT-TAB Anyway (if you run the programs in the correct sequence, and use the windows key if its naughty and doesn't work).


Francis


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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

[markusf]

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy on 05-02-2001 10:32 AM HI Markusf, It certainly did not run in a Window provided by Windows (if it was dx).. as Direct X uses its own set of libraries for direct access to the screen .. which is why its far faster that the Window provided by Windows However, it would theoretically be possible to provide a screen which is smaller than the desktop, which has its own set of programmed controls, so the user can move it about etc .. But basically, the software house would have to re-write all the functions you have on a standard window .. to make it look like it was one .. So maybe it is theoretically possible, but I really can't see any software house spending there time writing code to do this, when the only perceivable benefit is, you can run ICQ & chat at the same time .. especially more so, as you can ALT-TAB Anyway (if you run the programs in the correct sequence, and use the windows key if its naughty and doesn't work).

I am not talking about running a game using the Windows API. Ultima online runs as a "window". Also i really don't see many people alt tabbing out of games every 5 min to see if they have new mail etc, or while they are waiting for thier turn. its just a pain and often times the act of tabbing in and out crashes games. NOw as far as i know direct x supports running in windowed mode. Just look for DDSCL_NORMAL which is the flag, and SetCooperativeLevel which is the function... So instead of passing it DDSCL_FULLSCREEN they should use DDSCL_NORMAL ....

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-02-2001 11:16 AM Also i really don't see many people alt tabbing out of games every 5 min to see if they have new mail etc, or while they are waiting for thier turn. its just a pain and often times the act of tabbing in and out crashes games.

I couldn't have said it any better... SP or MP, I want to be able to do other things. Since we know there will probably be technical problems with the game, easy access to ICQ or any other alternative communications software is a MUST for MP players!

[Henrik]

I sincerely hope that they wont use directx to do the multiplayer since it will mean that all mac users (a few more than you think...) will be cut of from multiplayer
Mac and PC players can play together in civ 2 but not SMAC, etc
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited May 02, 2001).]

[ChrisShaffer]

quote: You got to understand that in north America pretty much everyone has Cable modems etc. Civ2 is great because i can check my email reply to icq etc etc. When a game is playing fulling screen i am cut off from everything else. Now i suppose a lot of single players aren't connected to the net so they wouldn't really care if it was windowed or full screen. But more of the world is being connected 24/7 to the net through a constant connection, it gets to be a pain in the ass to be cut off from everything. Especially when playing multiplayer and you have to sit and wait 15 min for your turn.. I would rather spend that time surfing

Only 6% of home connections in the US are DSL/Cable/whatever and the rest are 56k (or slower) dialup. A lot of us may have high speed connections at work, but the average home user has an old fashioned modem.

And you wouldn't have to sit waiting 15 minutes between turns if we had turn-based simultaneous movement :-). Wouldn't it be nice to play a server based TBSE game with turns set to run every half hour?
[This message has been edited by ChrisShaffer (edited May 02, 2001).]

[Gramphos]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 04-30-2001 08:40 PM sounds good. any comments on the above options?

How about Don't care?

This does not mean that I don't care. I prefer Window based interfaces in all modes, but have most use for it in MP (like to have a solitaire game up and running to have something to do when I wait. )

[markusf]

quote: Originally posted by vgriph on 05-02-2001 03:36 PM How about Don't care?

Well you certainly don't play multiplayer. The fact remains that i haven't seen a SINGLE person who ACTIVELY plays civ2 multiplayer say they prefer a fullscreen game. If i was firixas i would seriously look at what gamers want. And as far as i know, forcing the user to wait 15 minutes for his turn isn't going to go over well. And if you do that you will soon have no one playing it multiplayer... ie SMAC

[MarkG]

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