Refugees

[Grrr]

Have you ever played CTP and edited the cities in Units.txt, giving them movement? This is what the Civ III nomads should be like

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 01-09- 2001 05:19 PM Nomadic civilizations, as Lapps, Gipsy, Bedouins, american indians, tuaregs, etc. can be emulated using these refugee units. Think of an unit using a single square of land acting as a city.

[New Yorker]

i don't want to throw the subject off but if u include refugees, to me at least, there should be a whole system of immigration not only refugees, these immigrants & refugee shouldn't only occur during war but also change of government, or when famine strikes & immigrants/refugees shouldn't really drive down happiness depending on the events surrounding the refugees

1 more thing on the refugees, should u be able to turn them into slaves, just a thought

sorry if i repeated someone cuz i didn't read everything

-----------------------
if at first u don't succeed, skydiving ain't 4 u
[This message has been edited by New Yorker (edited January 10, 2001).]

[- Groucho -]

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 on 12-31-2000 08:07 AM Special abilities - They aren't affected by ZOC and they don't create one. - Can't use railroad

Refugees are a cool idea, but I think that it is ZOC that should determine who controls refugees. If they are in A's ZOC, then A controls them, if they are in both A's and B's ZOC then neither controls them (they go barbarian), and if they are in no one's ZOC no one controls them and they go barbarian.

They should be able to use trains, but only if they are in someone's ZOC (i.e. if you put them on a train and then move them outside of one of your units ZOC, then you lose control and they essentially jump off the train - they should treat trains as roads when they're not controlled).

So sort of like SMAC's artefacts, anyone who walks past them can get control, but unlike artefacts, you don't have to end up in their square and you can't send them off by themselves (which I've always thought was an odd thing about artefacts - how do they walk by themselves?)

I like the idea that you can add them to any city's populace at a price of some unhappiness points, but what if you lost a city, refugees were generated, they wandered around for a bit, you managed to retake the city and then sent out a rescue mission to bring your people home. In that scenario there shouldn't be any unhappiness penalty.

[Wazell]

So refugees are independent units which are controlled by someone only in certain situations? That might work best. About the immigration-emigration system, it is also something which needs to be in Civ3. And in many ways. If your people are unhappy, some of them can emigrate to another civ, residents of poor regions of your civ move to richer parts, and it's also possible to tell your people to move somewhere else, like settlers and colony pods now. Immigration is so great part of history, it can't be left out.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Refugee Unit: Counterproposal

[/i](The numbers and details used in this post are based on the CivII systems...obviously, they'd vary depending on what's implemented in CivIII as far as support structure, combat concepts, etc.)[/i]

Unit: Refugee
A/D/M/HP: 0/1/1/1
Cost: Not produced; see below.
Support: 2 Food, 2 Shields from nearest friendly city. Also cause 1 unhappy citizen in the supporting city.

Special Rules:

[*]Refugees are created when a city without city walls is attacked. There's a small chance of them appearing inside a city radius every time a unit inside the city is defeated. The odds of this happening increase with the size of the city. Also, under certain governments, you can order your units to create refugees out of your own cities.[*]If a Refugee is inside a city radius (ANY city radius, friendly or un-) that square cannot be worked.[*]Every turn a Refugee is under your control, you take a (very small) diplomatic penalty. This is not really significant unless you have lots of Refugees, or keep them in play for a very long time.[/list]

Ownership:


[*]When a Refugee is created, it belongs to the attacking civilization.[*]You can release your Refugee to another civilization by moving it across a border and into their territory. At that point, their closest city must pay the maintenance costs, but the Refugee's movement is controlled by the computer.[*]Any Refugee under your control, but outside your borders, must be accompanied by a military unit, or you lose control of it! A Refugee under this kind of military control has larger diplomatic penalties than normal.[*]A civilization that is paying support on a Refugee, but not in control of it, can capture it by attacking the Refugee with any military unit. Once it's captured, the civilization still has to pay support, but can now move or dispose of the Refugee however they'd like.[/list]

Disposal:


[*]A Refugee under your control can be disbanded at any time. Since you're essentially killing off a bunch of helpless people, there are diplomatic penalties to this, which vary according to the government of the other civilizations.[*]A Refugee under your control can be taken to any city in your empire and resettled, adding 1 to the population of that city. That citizen is unhappy for 20 turns, however. A Refugee resettled in their home city is unhappy for only 5 turns.[*]A Refugee under your control can be herded across the border to another civilization as described above, effectively making them somebody else's problem. There is a diplomatic penalty for this as well, but only with the civilization you're sending them to. (Much like a spy being caught.)[*]A Refugee under military control will be KILLED when the military unit escorting them is destroyed. This is a serious diplomatic penalty for the attacker A killed Refugee may turn into a terrorist unit appropriate for the age. (Warrior, Musketeer, Partisan)[/list]

Strategic Implications:

I think that this unit could have a serious effect on exactly what strategies work in CivIII and what strategies don't. Depending on how high the odds are of a Refugee being created, this could seriously discourage huge military conflicts. They'd simply be unprofitable. Too many diplomatic problems, especially in modern times when advanced governments tend to frown on such things, and too many ecomonic issues, since lots of Refugees can cripple the industry and growth of your cities. Because of this, I think there should be an option to set the likelihood of Refugees appearing, like there is for barbarians now.

That being said, Refugees can cripple the enemy's economy just as effectively as your own. If you want to attack an enemy, but military options aren't prudent for diplomatic or other reasons, you can send your Refugees across the border and release them. This hurts their economy, ties up their military, and also might provoke them into firing the first shot in a shooting war, saving you the damage to your reputation.

Refugees can also be used as human shields for your units. What if you, say, sent a dozen tanks over the border, all of which were escorted by Refugees? As long as each Refugee ends its turn in the same square as one of your tanks, they stay under your control. On the other hand, if your tanks are ambushed and destroyed, the Refugee is killed, and the diplomats are all in a tizzy.

There's lots of examples, but the basic idea is they'll make military conquest less profitable, and sneaky stuff more fun.
[This message has been edited by Bell (edited January 16, 2001).]

[loinburger]

I believe it in the Units section of the List that there was a rather simplistic set of rules for refugees. Following is the fully worked out ideas that resulted in the brief entry into the List:

When a city is conquered, or possibly just attacked or in a state of turmoil (revolution, people starving, etc.), then there is a chance that refugee units will be created. They will make their way across the map towards a target city; this destination will change if the target city is attacked or undergoes some sort of turmoil. If the refugees are happy with their current Civ (such as if they were in a city conquered by an opposing Civ) then their destination city will be a city from their old Civ or a city friendly to that Civ. If they are unhappy with their current Civ (they are starving, the Civ is oppressive, etc.) then they will make their way to the city of an opposing Civ.

Refugees have little to no defense and cannot attack. The suggested Att/Def values were 0/1, with one suggestion being 0/0 (if they are attacked, they will die).

If the refugees are on a city's production tile then that tile will have reduced output, or possibly no output (the refugees are living off of the land). When the refugees reach the target city's production radius then they will request asylum. A Democratic or Republican (not the political parties, but the government choices) Civ will create unhappiness if they turn away refugees; any other Civ can send the refugees packing. Refugees will add a point of population to the city that they arrive at, but they will not be able to produce anything (work the land, become a Taxman, etc.) for five turns after their arrival; they will still eat food and create population-based pollution, though.

If refugees are left wandering for too long they may either disappear (die of starvation and exposure) or create their own barbarian city. This city is neutral with all Civs, since the other Civs did not welcome the refugees but did not kill them either.

Killing refugees will constitute a diplomatic penalty and will also create unhappiness in a Democratic or Republican Civ. Refugees can be forced off of the land that they are occupying (such as a city's production radius tile) by initiating an attack against them; the option will be presented whether you want the refugees destroyed or forced off. Forcing refugees off will create unhappiness in a Democratic or Republican Civ, but constitutes no diplomatic penalty. However, there is a possibility that the refugees will die (base chance would be something like: forcing unit's ATT minus 6 times 10, or (ATT-6)*10, since tanks are ill-suited to "friendly" crowd control but casualties caused by infantry (note that Mech Inf ATT is 6, so there is no chance of destroying the refugees are minor when used towards "friendly" crowd control). If the refugees die while you are forcing them off of your land, you will receive the same diplomatic penalty that you would receive from outright killing them.

Attacking refugees might cause them to spontaneously turn into Partisans. This possiblity also exists if you are forcing them off of your land if the forcing unit has an ATT above 6. The transformation takes place before the attack is resolved, so if you attack refugees you might actually be attacking Partisans; if you defeat the Partisans in the initial attack (the one intended to destroy the refugees) then you will receive a diplomatic penalty just as you would for killing refugees. If the Partisans survive the attack then you can thereafter attack the unit without fear of diplomatic penalty. If an attack against refugees is unsuccessful (either you or the refugees retreat before the battle is over, or the refugees, against all odds, win the battle) then you will still receive a diplomatic penalty, but not as great as the one you would receive for killing the refugees.


Unfortunately, not all of this made it into the list; not enough space, IMO. The list says something along the lines of "Refugees: 0 ATT, 1 DEF, prevents use of land occupied by unit, adds 1 unit of population to a city, attacking Refugees constitutes a diplomatic penalty."

[Jeje2]

Bell's counterproposal

The idea in itself sounds OK, but I would like to once more point out why the Wanderer/refugee unit is at all needed.

Bell sad that a refugee could be created in a city whitout city walls. I have to disagree. The biggest problem with defence in CivII was that you even in late game wanted to defend your city in your city. This isn't true in our days... In early days yes, but today no. So refugee unit has a purpose...
(Of course I would like to have destroyed city improvements also...)

technophile

That is a good way to describe it.
(Some minor things of course, but ... )

[Admiral PJ]

I dislike the idea of refugees SUDDENLY becoming partisans etc when you attack them.. they should represent ordinary peasants/families fleeing or emmigrating a war or because they're economic refugees (wanting to go to a rich city.. anywhere but home to make a good living)

Normally refugees stay the same nationality as they started, unless they join another civ or just live in slums like the recent asia Indian refugees(around Kaskmir/bangladesh somewhere)

The partisans created from a conquered city could protect the refugess as separate units.. and yes they should become independant/barbarian if their owner tries to disband them (but other countries can support them with food somehow.. such as the UN does by offering refugee camps)

Admiral Pete

[Lawrence of Arabia]

There some very good ideas in this thread, but I have one to add.

Lets say that your civ has a very high culture rating, and you capture a city of whos civ has a low culture rating. Those refugees while have less unhappiness when they settle in your cities. If its the other way around, then there are even bigger unhappiness for longer.

------------------
Its okay to smile; you're in America now