Should America be a civ?

[ThePlagueRat]

Personally, I despise the USA trash-culture spread like a plague here in Europe nowadays... friggin R&B junkmusic and junkfood commercials. Crappy must-see hollywood movies, car-culture, and the lawyer series, aaaargh. Can't take it anymore.
But one thing is sure: Thank God we got the Blues!


Aside from this perverted American culture, exceptions being the Blues, and Rock'n Roll, Heavy Metal, etc. (hehe), USA world hegemony is based on a global economy and just being a military threat. TRADE is the civ keyword. USA is much like the Roman empire in political aspects. Threatening behaviour is used in large amounts, and the military is used to ensure the best trading possibilties. USA and CCCP did much of the same too. And it can all be done in civ, though the Civ3 AI is too stupid to undertand a real threat... They probably felt like keeping up the intimidating tone.

Romans did never meet an ideological foe such as Soviet, but they also used cultural influence on other civs, and invaded where they met resistance. History tell us such empires eventually falls apart. Caused by many things, but most important... They produce much anger in those areas it interferes. Some people fund it disrespectful and troublesome, and at last Romans had so many enemies, they couldn't deal with them all.
See the todays parallel?

[Divvy]

Originally posted by ottok
NO.
USA ISNT CIVILIZATION IT IS MILITARISATION!

THIS IS A one reason,which are build a terrorism.

And anyway! Who is the Saddam? Whot fool hee doo...

is only tell that its HATE all to usa! Some one others think same... Why only saddam? And after Saddam,there at cam a seccond men who tells"USA IS SATAN!" and became the leader! But he at also maybe the TO MUCH DANGER than saddam newer!!

Why oh why do I live in the same country as this guy?

[Azeem]

Why yes, ThePlagueRat, we (I am an American, although some racists who pledge blind patriotism would say otherwise ) are very much like the Roman Empire.

I think America SHOULD be a civ quite simply because we have been an influential world power for over 200 years. That's quite a short period of time compared to nations like Egypt, China, and Rome, but a lot the US has had a MASSIVE influence on what occurs in the world in recent years.

"American" culture did originate from the Europe, but nowadays we have a more distinct culture (although I find it hideously trashy as well, but it sure is funny ). We are very much multi-cultural though numerous politicians and Neo-Nazis are still too stubborn to figure out that America is an IMMIGRANT country.

Although there is no way CivIII can really simulate a stable (er, somewhat stable :rolleyes ) multi-cultural nation, it is good that they included us both for historical, personal, and gameplay reasons.

Let me reiterate that CivIII puts us in "What if" situations. What if Abraham Lincoln enslaved foreign workers? What if the Arabs really built the Great Wall? What if the Aztecs invaded the US? What if Mao was really a nice and intelligent guy?

[ThePlagueRat]

That's right Azeem. USA is a country very much influnted by foreign (immigrant) cultures, and at the same time has the biggest influence on other cultures. The not yet obsolete "Hollywood Wonder" has a bit too much to do with it if you ask me.

Every day it's running some Hollywood movie on many local and regional TV-stations here in Europe. Some of them are pretty good, like Stanley Kubrick's. But when we watch the typical trash, we use to say: "Waste of time... cr(h)appy ending... Too damn American! "

With "too damn American", we mean it's very much black and white, bad vs. good, moralistic, religious, or so on. Hmm...
Very rarely they run a Bollywood here... Speaking of India, I hope we get some more cultural influence (or rather inspiration) from those parts soon.

And yes, Civ3 is pretty much a "what if..." game. The realpolitcal aspects of military power play a bigger role in the game, and culture bit is just being a part of the empirebuilding.

[ThePlagueRat]

Speaking of world hegemony.....

Some historians now predict a change of course:
The US hegemony will fall in about 15 to 25 years from now.
That means not destruction of american culture, mind you. It's limited how long such foreign politics that has been commited can go on. It has been done before, and it's not a good long term strategy. Recent foreign politics has put the empire in slightly the same position as Rome were in. When Rome fell... It has created too many enemies, and other powers are competing for the 'throne'. Well, that's what many intellectuals state, and I tend to agree with them. (They are educated people, in studies of different empires)

[Arrian]

Personally, I have no problem with the US being in the game. I am amused by the city graphics/cultural grouping, but hey, it's just a game. I often conquer America. I hardly ever play it.

But if America being a civ in CivIII bothers you, just fire up the editor and change them to the Incas. One could argue that the traits are fine as-is, so all you gotta do is come up with a good ancient/early medieval UU.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

The Americans should have been Commercial and Industrious, IMO. I believe these two traits reflect America's nature throughout its existence. Expansionist only makes sense during the early days of colonization, and its in-game realisation makes no sense for the Americans. Religious also only makes sense for the early days of America. It is quite clear that religion has been important for the American people, but almost never has it governed the country's policies, unlike commercial and industrial enterprises.

A nice gameplay effect of making America Commercial/Industrious is that it would become a late-game power in Civ3 (as it should be), as opposed to an early-game one (because of the Expansionist trait).

I'm not entirely sure which civ would fill the Expansionist/Industrious slot, however (especially pre-PTW).


Dominae

[Panag]

Originally posted by Dominae
The Americans should have been Commercial and Industrious, IMO. I believe these two traits reflect America's nature throughout its existence. Expansionist only makes sense during the early days of colonization, and its in-game realisation makes no sense for the Americans. Religious also only makes sense for the early days of America. It is quite clear that religion has been important for the American people, but almost never has it governed the country's policies, unlike commercial and industrial enterprises.

A nice gameplay effect of making America Commercial/Industrious is that it would become a late-game power in Civ3 (as it should be), as opposed to an early-game one (because of the Expansionist trait).

I'm not entirely sure which civ would fill the Expansionist/Industrious slot, however (especially pre-PTW).


Dominae

hi ,

well the expansion trait is good , imagine that you take over a city far away , kind off the same as a forward military base , ....

agreed some civs , like the US should have a third trait , lets hope there are more traits on their way

have a nice day

[CrONoS]

Should America be a Civ: ppfff NEVER

Now, should Canada be a Civ: Now you Talk Baby!!!

Canada can have some many specials units:
Workers became WoodCutters.... they work twice as normal...

We got ugly prime minister for intimidation.(enemy asking less than normal in trade and diplomacy)

Canada can have some "Courreurs de Bois", like scoots but they can have a attack of one.

One serious thing Canada can have is the Avro Arrow:
" The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet interceptor, designed and built by the A.V. Roe Aircraft company of Canada. The Arrow was a plane of firsts, fly by wire, computer control, integral missile system and capable of MACH 2+. The year was 1958, and the COLD WAR was raging." But the production of the CF-105(avro arrow)was cancelled.... Mainly for one reason... And you can guest:

A recently declassified U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense memorandum dated June 1, 1960 says:
"Prior to the NSC (National Security Council) paper (December 1958) and following a visit of the President to Canada in July 1958, Canada took the following actions with the understanding that her defense industry depended largely upon the U.S. channelling defense business into Canada; cancelled the CF-105 and related systems contracts; decided to make maximum use of U.S. developed weapons, integrated into NORAD; worked with U.S. toward a fully integrated continental defence."

Some 14,000 employees were fired immediately. Within two months, five superb flying machines and a more powerful sixth, which had been within days of takeoff, were ordered reduced to scrap. Also, 31 others in various stages of assembly, along with all parts, drawings, accessories, blueprints and photographs were ordered destroyed.
Even today, some Canadians are unaware of the aircraft's existence, yet it still ranks as one of the most technically challenging projects ever undertaken in this country.

Canada always get f*uck... But maybe the Senators of Ottawa will win the Stanley Cup.
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Just imagine Jean Chretien the animated leader

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[Panag]

Originally posted by cronos_qc
Should America be a Civ: ppfff NEVER

Now, should Canada be a Civ: Now you Talk Baby!!!

Canada can have some many specials units:
Workers became WoodCutters.... they work twice as normal...

We got ugly prime minister for intimidation.(enemy asking less than normal in trade and diplomacy)

Canada can have some "Courreurs de Bois", like scoots but they can have a attack of one.

One serious thing Canada can have is the Avro Arrow:
" The Avro Arrow was a revolutionary jet interceptor, designed and built by the A.V. Roe Aircraft company of Canada. The Arrow was a plane of firsts, fly by wire, computer control, integral missile system and capable of MACH 2+. The year was 1958, and the COLD WAR was raging." But the production of the CF-105(avro arrow)was cancelled.... Mainly for one reason... And you can guest:

A recently declassified U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense memorandum dated June 1, 1960 says:
"Prior to the NSC (National Security Council) paper (December 1958) and following a visit of the President to Canada in July 1958, Canada took the following actions with the understanding that her defense industry depended largely upon the U.S. channelling defense business into Canada; cancelled the CF-105 and related systems contracts; decided to make maximum use of U.S. developed weapons, integrated into NORAD; worked with U.S. toward a fully integrated continental defence."

Some 14,000 employees were fired immediately. Within two months, five superb flying machines and a more powerful sixth, which had been within days of takeoff, were ordered reduced to scrap. Also, 31 others in various stages of assembly, along with all parts, drawings, accessories, blueprints and photographs were ordered destroyed.
Even today, some Canadians are unaware of the aircraft's existence, yet it still ranks as one of the most technically challenging projects ever undertaken in this country.

Canada always get f*uck... But maybe the Senators of Ottawa will win the Stanley Cup.
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Just imagine Jean Chretien the animated leader

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hi ,

and canada can still not make certain deals , .... the commonwealth or the queen has to sign , ....

if that plane really is so good , then how come that they use the f16 , ....

have a nice day

[CrONoS]

Dibt forget that last thread was Ironic and Sarcastic... Canada do not deserve to be a Civilization. Even if i'm canadian I know who we are.
And I really dont think the queen or commonwealth got to sign anything for US. I think she's there if we want to change our Constitution.
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But for the plane:
A recently declassified U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense memorandum dated June 1, 1960 says:
"Prior to the NSC (National Security Council) paper (December 1958) and following a visit of the President to Canada in July 1958, Canada took the following actions with the understanding that her defense industry depended largely upon the U.S. channelling defense business into Canada; cancelled the CF-105 and related systems contracts; decided to make maximum use of U.S. developed weapons, integrated into NORAD; worked with U.S. toward a fully integrated continental defence."

"6 Made plane were scrapped, also, 31 others in various stages of assembly, along with all parts, drawings, accessories, blueprints and photographs were ordered destroyed."
But why U.S.A. didn't bought the place... that's the question!

and something else:
In a book titled -- Apollo: The Race to the Moon, published in 1969 by Simon and Shuster of New York, authors Charles Murray and Catherine Bly-Cox had this to sav about the Contribution to the American space programs made by the ex-Avro team of Canadians that went down to NASA after the cancellation of the Arrow program.

" As the Space Task Group's burden was threatening to overwhelm it, the Canadian government unintentionally gave the American space program its luckiest break since Wernher von Braun had surrendered to the Americans ------ The Canadians never gained much public recognition for their contribution to the manned space program, but to the people within the program their contribution was incalculable"
The book also quotes one of the original American Space Task Group engineers as saying, about the Canadians ;

" They had it all over us, in many areas------ just brilliant guys ---- They were more mature and they were bright as hell and talented and professional, to a man."
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http://www.avroarrow.org/