Should America be a civ?

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Chilean President
lets call them "unitedstatians", Chileans are Americans also... as Mexicans, Brazilians, Canadians and Surinameses ( yeah, Surinameses ).
Anyway I believe that language is not a barrier to put the "Unitedstatians" in the game.

That won't do. A lot of nations in the world are unions of states. Mexico, for instance, is officially the 'United States of Mexico'.

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by Ribannah
That won't do. A lot of nations in the world are unions of states. Mexico, for instance, is officially the 'United States of Mexico'.

That's my point!.. the name United States of America is a wrong name. In the case of México, the "United States of México" is not called as the continent. The problem is that, the USA has taken the name of the entire continent to name their own country. 51 States (I think that's the right number), is not a reason to call them "America".
You may see that some of those states have names that were not taked from other geographical sites, Milwaukee or Wisconsin are original names... United States of America, is not.


Sorry for my possibles mistakes, my english is kind of rusty

[Panag]

Originally posted by Chilean President


That's my point!.. the name United States of America is a wrong name. In the case of México, the "United States of México" is not called as the continent. The problem is that, the USA has taken the name of the entire continent to name their own country. 51 States (I think that's the right number), is not a reason to call them "America".
You may see that some of those states have names that were not taked from other geographical sites, Milwaukee or Wisconsin are original names... United States of America, is not.


Sorry for my possibles mistakes, my english is kind of rusty

hi ,

they did not choose the name back then intending to name the whole continent after them , ......

they are the united states of america , ......

have a nice day

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Amesjustin:

My point is that the Americans are in fact the English.

The real Americans in civ3 are the Iroquois, and should have been named as such. This is the source of the identity crisis for the native american civs. First they were the Sioux then they were Iroquis. They should have been American all along.

While we may still speak english, I think it is safe to say we are no longer English. This country is full of people who are of spanish, asian, middle eastern, and african descent. I live in Southern California, where people of any Anglo-Saxon descent make up about 42% of the population. One of the things that makes our culture so unique in the world is the melting pot of different cultures that exist here. I can get food from any nation within an hour here.

As far as your different languages go - I think there are more countries out there that do NOT have their own language than do. Does Brazil not have a seperate culture from Portugal?

Being partially Native American myself, I think I might know a bit more about the topic than you. Native americans are actually descendants from asia, crossing over to Alaska on an ice bridge during the last Ice Age, and migrating south. Does that mean the Cherokee are asian? In fact many studies say that human life started in Africa or the Middle East - do you consider yourself to be African or Middle Eastern?

The fact is, we all came from the same source, whether you believe in Evolution or Creationism, and so large as a species that the fragmentation into different nations was eventually inevitable. Each nation has developed their own culture, even the USA. In fact, the USA has a rather distinctive culture if you ask me. You might not like the culture (there are some aspects I don't like), but it IS a culture that is very different from the English.

Americans are not English, the English are not Norman/Saxon, nor were the Norman/Saxons African. Yes we are all people, but what fun is that in a game like this? We are all our own people within the nation we live in.

And as far as the term 'Americans' go - I agree that the term 'America' applies to native americans AND all the peoples living in North and South America. But the point of Civ3 is to have different nations play against each other. We refer to each other as Americans only because United Statians sounds lame.

The Native Americans had a culture here, but were wiped out by the Colonists. In Civ3 terms, think of it this way - England starts colonizing a land where the lesser-developed Native Americans lived. After a short-lived peace treaty, war breaks out, and almost all of the Native American cities are destroyed, the few that remain eventually 'flip' over to the other side. The Colonists eventually revolt and form their own nation (Something which Civ 3 really should have incorporated).

At any rate, this is just a game, enjoy it, remove the US if you like! Just please stop using a game that is supposed to provide fun as your anti-american vehicle.

[XarXo]

America is a civ, just because they created an own life visions. A very selfish and monetarized, yes, but a different one.

They have a sense of americanism (who deserve this?) nationality.

They have the longest democtratic government in history.

Well... USA... What else I have to say?

About the name, they called themselves "americans" just because they are a mix of some great macrorregions that if constituited separed states they probably maintained their own name.

These macrorregions (New England, Lousiana, parts of México...) are the reason of such common "America" noun. Well, the good idea could be include "North-" in the noun so the South subcontinent states can forget the idea of an "imperialist" expansion (USA IS imperialist, yes, but not in the noun ).

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

they did not choose the name back then intending to name the whole continent after them , ......

they are the united states of america , ......

have a nice day

Exactly. The country was named before the continents. So that make the continents improperly named, would it not?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Amesjustin


Exactly. The country was named before the continents. So that make the continents improperly named, would it not?

hi ,

looking at an atlas of about a hundred years old ; North - and South America are named as ; the Americas , .....

have a nice day

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by XarXo
America is a civ, just because they created an own life visions. A very selfish and monetarized, yes, but a different one.

Keep in mind this is not how the vast majority of America is. This is the image portrayed by Hollywood and other media, both foreign and domestic. Most Americans are just as appalled by greed and autocentrism as you are.

[Chilean President™]

I totally agree with you first post Amesjustin.
I just want to clear that I never said that the confusion with the name was due to a "imperalistic policy" from the US, come on! Is just a simple mistake.

Anyway the country was named as the continent, not before. The English name their occidental colonies as "american colonies" due to the fact that they were on America (the continent).
Actually I don't have the accurate dates of the first time that the name was used fort the continent (by Americo Vespucio) and the name of the English colonies, If you have that information Amesjustin or anyone else, please tell me about it.

[Master Zen]

But I am sure that the term "America" refereing to the New World was used WAAAAY before the term American colonists came into widespread use in England.

What I find it hard to swallow is that in the Webster's dictionary, under "American" the first definition is that of the United States when the term should be applied to any citizen of any country in America.

So, Chilean President, change your name to American President! Let's take the name back!!

[Chilean President™]

Originally posted by Master Zen
So, Chilean President, change your name to American President! Let's take the name back!!

then maybe the people would believe that I'm Bush.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Chilean President



then maybe people will believe that I'm Bush.

Not even I want to be confused with that idiot!

[Ribannah]

It is Iceland that has the longest history of Democracy, followed by the Iroquois who introduced the participatory form.

Amesjustin, not all natives flipped. There are still several independent Amerind nations within the borders of the USA and Canada (the Iroquois among them). Also, the colonists adopted at least as much native culture as vice versa.

[Amesjustin]

All have at least partially assimilated into the culture, even the ones living on their sovereign reservations. The relatively recent upsurge in Indian Casinos shows that. Very little is left of their once very rich heritage

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Amesjustin


While we may still speak english, I think it is safe to say we are no longer English. This country is full of people who are of spanish, asian, middle eastern, and african descent. I live in Southern California, where people of any Anglo-Saxon descent make up about 42% of the population. One of the things that makes our culture so unique in the world is the melting pot of different cultures that exist here. I can get food from any nation within an hour here.

(1) It's not very unique.
(2) Sounds a lot like London really but I'd still call that an English city, especially in civ terms.
(3) When there is someone other than a middle-aged english speaking white man in the White House, then I'll believe that the USA has truly embraced cultural diversity.

As far as your different languages go - I think there are more countries out there that do NOT have their own language than do. Does Brazil not have a seperate culture from Portugal?

I never said that America doesn't have a separate culture from Britain. I was only saying that in civ terms the modern america is most correctly modelled as being born from the english civ for the general game. I'm not talking about scenarios here : the american civ is excellent and essential for scenario construction.

Also I think that the native americans are the original americans (obviously!) History might pan out differently and modern america might turn out to be a successful native american civ. Or it might get conquored by the french this time...

Being partially Native American myself, I think I might know a bit more about the topic than you. Native americans are actually descendants from asia, crossing over to Alaska on an ice bridge during the last Ice Age, and migrating south. Does that mean the Cherokee are asian? In fact many studies say that human life started in Africa or the Middle East - do you consider yourself to be African or Middle Eastern?

All of that is very nice but in the idiom of civilization it is consistant and most neatly modelled by making the native americans the civilization that starts off being called america. For playing on world map they should be the only civ starting in north america.

The fact is, we all came from the same source, whether you believe in Evolution or Creationism, and so large as a species that the fragmentation into different nations was eventually inevitable. Each nation has developed their own culture, even the USA. In fact, the USA has a rather distinctive culture if you ask me. You might not like the culture (there are some aspects I don't like), but it IS a culture that is very different from the English.

Americans are not English, the English are not Norman/Saxon, nor were the Norman/Saxons African. Yes we are all people, but what fun is that in a game like this? We are all our own people within the nation we live in.

well obviously everything is abstracted in civ. I'm suggesting that the least silly abstraction is an american civ - the native americans - and a bunch of european civs like the english and the french.

The Native Americans had a culture here, but were wiped out by the Colonists. In Civ3 terms, think of it this way - England starts colonizing a land where the lesser-developed Native Americans lived. After a short-lived peace treaty, war breaks out, and almost all of the Native American cities are destroyed, the few that remain eventually 'flip' over to the other side. The Colonists eventually revolt and form their own nation (Something which Civ 3 really should have incorporated).

correct. But it doesn't so the remaining mechanism is to make an american civ which starts with tribal native american city names.

At any rate, this is just a game, enjoy it, remove the US if you like! Just please stop using a game that is supposed to provide fun as your anti-american vehicle.

hey I'm not being anti-american. I'm just saying that the american civ should be modelled in a different way. I'm not saying that people shouldn't play civ the way they want. That goes without saying. I'm just pointing out the upside down nature of having an american civ that starts off building cities like washington and new york when the Englishness of these names is so apparant. If anything making the american civ based on its deeper heritage decouples america from europe and correctly makes it a separate independant culture.