military tree!

[Gammaray fan]

I mentioned this in some other thread, but no one read it, so I will put it here for discussion.
Many people seem to be annoyed that every civ has exactly the same units-with technology being the only thing that sets units apart. Clearly, civ-specific units are NOT the way to go - both from general concensus and the fact that this would make every game equally predictable as before.

The answer is this. When you discover a tech like iron working, you should be able to select whether you want a legion or a samurai - both with unique pros and cons. (this requires a times10system for attack and defense values)
Anyway the point is the most military units should come in two varieties each would be similar, but have slightly different attack and defence values. If you selected one, you could not build the other. (you could say that this reflects a civ being set in its ways or the values of a civ (more aggressive) whatever)

The result would be that every civ has a UNIQUE set of units EVERY GAME!
Well what do you think!

[samurai]

Agree, a good idea. A suggestion would be to be able to discover iron working two times if you want both units, but only need it once to go furter down the tech tree. Mabye not so interesting early in the game to have both samurai and legion, but maybe tank and artillery. Possible to do the same thing with buildings as well.

[Pingu:]

I agree too, more or less.

Of course every civ having different units would be alot of work, so how about having different units for every group of Civ. Similar to the different city sprites you get in the early game... These would converge as the the game moves in to the modern/future stages, when all soldiers start wearing cammoflauge. Just as the cities do.

I don't think that these units should actually be that different though. I agree they should look different, but to give them wildly different stats and abilities would mean that the different civs would have advantages based on what we dicide is appropriate for them, based on how history happened on Earth. That's not what Civ games are about, you make your own history.

It would be nice though, if only Oriental themed civs built Samurai, while a European type of civ built a foot soldier in Knight's armour etc. I just think that these units would be the same basic unit underneath, ('UNIT_ADVANCED_ANCIENT_INFANTRY' or something like that), but the sprite and graphics would be different.

Of course this would be a complete pain in the backside to put into the great library... perhaps there would be only one entry for each type of unit, and the picture flashes up a cycle through the 6 or 7 different themes of that unit.... Don't know...

The fact that Civ3 appear to have at least 2 types of tank is promising, although it might just mean that the Panzer is made obselete by the next generation of tank (the Abrams is a modern american tank isn't it????).


Pingu:

[SerapisIV]

I don't think it should work that way, once you get the tech, you shouldn't be able to re-research, it should be a one-time final choice between units, other then captured units, you shouldn't have the ability to get both.

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Gammaray fan on 04-18-2001 04:27 AM ...most military units should come in two varieties each would be similar, but have slightly different attack and defence values.

I think this is a great idea, but why only two varieties? This might be the way the game is shipped (to avoid too much extra development time!), but I'd like to see the possibility of mods being developed that provided different varieties for all 8 (or 16!) major civs. That would give you quite a headache each time you discovered a new military tech, but you could end up with some pretty unique civs!

[Cyclotron]

Hmm, an interesting idea...

Consider this: Researching iron once gives you legions or samurai. Legions are 2/2/1 and Samurai are 3/1/1. If I decide to get legions, I cannot research Iron working again... but I can steal or trade for somebody else's ironworking technology in which they chose samurai. How about it?

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

[SerapisIV]

I think the whole idea of researching twice or stealing another's tech to get the opponents iteration of your unit is wrong. If you're gonna be given a choice, then you should have to stick to it, if not then don't bother being given a choice, its just becomes another branch in the tech tree.

I do like the idea of getting unit choices, however you defeat the purpose of being given a choice at all if you are allowed to just steal the rejected unit type.
[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 18, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

Hmmm, unit choices...very interesting. It would make for a lot more strategy decisions in the game. I like the idea though as you said, it could be a "***** to implement" at least considering gameplay balancing. If its implemented well, it could open up a whole slew of additional strategies based on unit strengths.

[airdrik]

quote: Originally posted by samurai on 04-18-2001 05:23 AM A suggestion would be to be able to discover iron working two times if you want both units,

I don't quite agree with this, then people would just always research it twice just to get the second unit. Besides if you design one unit you are not likely to turn around and design the other because you already have one like it.

Otherwise I think it's a great idea. In order to have various units w/different abilities, you would have to go with the 10x attack/defence, but the values woulndn't change proportional to previous civs (where a howitzer would have an att of 120!). Variations on the units would be a set of modefiers in rules.txt ie:
legion ...
+1 at -1 mobility: samurai, +1 def -1 at: footman

[schubert37]

I think it could be very difficult to decide. Think about how difficult it will be with loads of units to decide whether to attack an enemy or not. Different armies need different looks. In high resolutions over 800x600 it will be hard to divide them.

[Gammaray fan]

Schubert,
the reason why I originally stated that there should only be 2 choices per unit type (legion v samurai, light cavalry v heavy cavalry etc.) was to keep things simple. With there being only two types of each unit, it would be one or the other with no space for confusion. To solve the civilopedia problem, both units could come under the same heading (eg. legion/samurai)

Another complementary idea. Some people have suggested there should be HEAPS of types of each unit. There is a simple way to implement this without adding confusion or complexity. If you are confused as to what an enemy unit is, you could click on it, and it would say 'iron footsoldier' for example to represent all the legion/samurai/etc. that exist, give the specific name eg. 'samurai' and give is att/def/mov stats. As for the civilopedia reference, simply put 'iron footsoldier' etc., and describe its general strengths/weaknesses, and tech needed/obsolete it. No need to all the various types. This would add a sense of adventure and discovery of new units as you encounter them and find out their exact stats by clicking on them. After all, in the real world, the Romans would not have heard of samurai's unless they had come across them in battle!

[Colonel Rhombus]

Gammaray - Civ isn't meant to mimmick the real world in every way. And the different civs (Romans, Americans, Indians, etc.) are really kind of arbitrary. Just because you're playing as the Romans doesn't mean you have to pick Legions instead of Samurai, it comes down to personal preference.

Nobody questions random land masses, where the English may dominate a huge continent and the Chinese stuck on a tiny little island in the middle of nowhere, so why question random units?

The best suggestion I've heard is to give Samurai/Legions and any other comparitive unit slightly different stats. Then you pick either one or the other. Roman Samurai, Zulu Longbows, why not?

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Regards,
Col. Rhombus

[Admiral PJ]

It would be good to have 'special/specific' units, maybe the Alpha Centauri system would work well, where just one type of unit, like a samurai is prototyped, I think this could still be used for each new unit made, we just don't get to mix and match things in civ3 (which is a shame, i hope theres something to represent gradual unit improvement)
Alpha centauri was good, it just needed the AI improved and better sound/ I'm glad we're getting lots of interesting unit graphics though like civ2.
Viva la difference!

Sounds like your system for only research one type of tech for legion/samurai (samurai should be lower defence and faster? more like a mounted legion) is just like Master of Orion 2 's where most alien races except psilons had to select 1 of 3 or so sciences for each advance (though the tech tree was linear, it just went physics 1 , physics 2, 3 more or less) and we had to trade the other science techs with other nations.. which was good to encourage peaceful diplomacy.
I think Civ3 etc could have this style system you mentioned,
LOOK at
how Russian cold war technologies , like Mig aircraft have Gone to China and vietnam (fast and manoverable) wheras America has its F16(good weapons and missiles, weak defence?) and europe can have the Harrier JEt, and the Eurofighter ..

Admiral of the Intergalactic A Centaurus Fleet

[airdrik]

quote: Originally posted by Colonel Rhombus on 04-19-2001 03:18 PM Gammaray - Civ isn't meant to mimmick the real world in every way. And the different civs (Romans, Americans, Indians, etc.) are really kind of arbitrary. Just because you're playing as the Romans doesn't mean you have to pick Legions instead of Samurai, it comes down to personal preference.

No one said you had to pick Legions if you were the Romans.

quote: Nobody questions random land masses, where the English may dominate a huge continent and the Chinese stuck on a tiny little island in the middle of nowhere, so why question random units?

You could always have an option that says "pick random unit w/new tech advance" and make the picking of your units totally random .

An idea I just had about clicking on a unit and seeing it's at/def/etc., perhaps you cannot see that unitil you've done battle with that unit (or if you bribe one ). Because it wouldn't be until you've done battle with the unit that you know how it fights.

[TechWins]

If you research Iron Working you should have a choice of Legion or Samurai.
You choose Samurai because your looking for an offensive unit per say 3/1/1 instead of the more defensive Legion unit per say 2/2/1. Then after choosing Samurai you should not be able to re-research Iron Working to also get Legion. The only way you could get a Legion unit is if you find one in a hut or capture one. The choice of either having to take a samurai or a legion is the whole strategy of having the choice of two units. If you want to be a more aggresive on the war side then take a samurai if you're looking for more defense then take a Legion. There should be careful planning in your strategy of taking a particular unit.