Later game ICS

[Father Beast]

OK, this isn't about the free tile, this is about being able to maunfacture basically endless cities at will by using WLtxD's in rep or Demo.
I can set a city with high production to cranking out settlers/engineers with the city in permanent WLTCD and as soon as the settler founds a city, I get my citizen back. repeated endlessly, I can send out a horde of settlers for almost free.

Does anyone else think that this strategy (and the "President's day sale" in general) is unbalancing to the game?

The President's day effect should be changed to something else, IMO. it's a gamebreaker.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast on 04-10-2001 03:09 PM I can set a city with high production to cranking out settlers/engineers with the city in permanent WLTCD and as soon as the settler founds a city, I get my citizen back. repeated endlessly.

"WLTCD" Huh?

What do you mean by "get my citizen back"?

Then a 2-pop settler founds a new city, these 2-pops stays in that newly founded city, and the old city must regenerate its lost pop-points the hard way. Thats the whole point.

I suspect however Firaxis have more anti-ICS preventions up their sleeves, then just the "lost pop-points" idea. We simply dont have the full picture yet.

[J.DeMobray]

We Love The X=Title Day.

In Civ2, Democracies in WLTPD gained one citizen per turn. The concern is that even 2 cost settlers will not be able to dissuade using this bonus to generate lots and lots of cities really quickly.

[jglidewell]

Why not? Its called colonization. Once you discover the New World it will always be that way.

Typically though in the game you just put off placing cities because of other concerns, like putting down that militist nieghbor and securing your home cities.

[markusf]

Anyone dumb enough to do that in a multiplayer game will lose badly. ICS as a end game solution hasn't been feasible for a LONG time. The supergrowth strat blows ics out of the water. I can do with 20 cities what a ics'r can't do with 120 cities.(good luck building that many) The only problem with end game is caravans to other civs... and the ability to buy spaceship parts. You can set up a ship chain to another civ, and by going 90% cash 10% luxeries and haveing one science specialist you can mass buy caravans and improvements. Then moving the caravans along the chain to the other civ's city you can get 1 turn a tech + 7000 gold a turn(assuming you have about 25 cities) and about 5 caravans/turn. After doing this for a while I have 30 cities with +40 trade routes each, Sometimes 50+/routes. This way each city in your empire produces about 300 science when going back to 90% science, with caravan/ship chaining your looking at 3 TECHS/turn. Along with 3-4k cash from caravans a turn. This strat is the be all and end all of civ end game strats. There is nothing that can come even close

[Father Beast]

The "president's day sale" is an established strategy in civ, all the way from civ1. the increased pop booming turns your fair to middling city to a skyscraper giant in just a few turns. You didn't "pay" for those citizens by feeding them, you got them for almost free.
the strategy is so useful (like the old settler cheat), that established players do it regularly. turns you quickly from a struggling set of towns to a mighty band of cities.

is that a gamebreaker or not?

[markusf]

well what do you expect, I don't see the the former east block as powerful as the usa. Thats because communisum just doesn't work. If you don't play as a democracy to increase your pop thats your own fualt. Every government in civ has advantages and disadvantages. nex thing we will hear from you is how unfair fundy is to democracy players.

[Nemo]

in order to curb late game ICS what if the settler, when created, takes 2 pop (as it stands now), but when it makes a city, the city starts at 1 pop? at this point in time i have not seen anything saying that a newly found city is goind to start with 2 pop or 1 pop. but by starting it at 1 pop, it would make you reconsider your ICS'ing. and in reality the population loss could be constituted by disease, famine, or barbarians that plucked a few of teh settlers off enroute.

[markusf]

This whole thing is stupid. I play with the best of the best civ2 multiplayer gamers. I have yet to just ONCE see this strat being effective. I have honestly never ever seen a single person using end game ics and get any kind of tangible results. Anyone who uses that strat as a end game strat really doesn't know how to play...
Now icsing at 2000 bc is another story.

[airdrik]

Actually, there have been discussion on this in the civ 2 forums, and the end result was that all govs are generally equal, but each is strong in it's own aspects.

But according the the cgw site, fundy is out. So you won't have to worry about that.

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 04-12-2001 10:48 AM nex thing we will hear from you is how unfair fundy is to democracy players.

Wow! You must have read my "fundamentalism is too powerful" thread in civ2 general.

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 04-12-2001 04:08 PM This whole thing is stupid. I play with the best of the best civ2 multiplayer gamers. I have yet to just ONCE see this strat being effective. I have honestly never ever seen a single person using end game ics and get any kind of tangible results. Anyone who uses that strat as a end game strat really doesn't know how to play... Now icsing at 2000 bc is another story.

let's see, you've never seen anyone use a "president's day sale" to boost their pop and overall production in an MP game? Why do I find that hard to believe?

I've read accounts of people who forgot to have their year 0 presidents day sale and ended up this mediocre struggling civ by endgame So they went back and did it and became this massive superpower by endgame.

[Comrade Tribune]

Father Beast, I´d say You are right.
I have always felt midgame Republics/Democracies are a bit too strong. My bets are, Firaxis has already realized -and fixed- that. But it was worth mentioning, just to be on the safe side.

[TechWins]

What's this Presidents Sale thing?

[Simpson II]

WLTXD is not unbalancing, it's an important balancing component. Without it there would be absolutely *no* alternative to all-out expansion and warfare. If it's not included then Civ3 will be more of an ICS fest than Civ2, even with the 2-pop settler!

The point in balancing a game is not to take away all powerful strategies, it's to make sure there are diverse powerful routes to victory.