We need more realism to Civilization!

[King Richard]

Hi!

I've been playing civilization for years now. I've spent countless days (and nights) playing these fantastic games, but nothing is perfect. I'm currently studying history at the university of Oslo. My interest in history is one of the main reasons that I love the games. Therefore I want some more realism to the game. In civ2, germans and french can't play at the same time (one of them has to die for the other to occur). I'm suggesting that civilizations that have followed in history should have the same colour (first greeks, then romans, then bysantines and so on). This might create some problems though, since both bysantines and several germanic tribes followed the roman empire (franks, carolingians, ostrogoths, visigoths, angles & saxons etc.). Any views how to solve this? At least it should be possible to have both germans and french playing at the same time. Perhaps if no tribe had a specific colour attached to it? They should also add more city-names to each civ. Cunaxa, Issus, Bergen etc. doesn't fit very well to the English... I also want to choose to play without wonders, or at least an option to build every wonder when I wish to do so (A wonder can occur in one of the cities of every civ). Natural disasters should occur! I think this happened in civ1?! Bubonic plaque could be interesting... I also hate when the AI cheats, and when all of them ally against me when I haven't done anything to provoke them. I must say I'm eager to see how civ3 will look like, but I don't think it will be as good as I hope. Any views???

[Ilkuul]

If I understand it correctly, the colours were assigned in Civ1 simply to help distinguish the 7 civs; then in Civ2 we were given 21 civs to choose from, but because there was still the limitation that only 7 could occur in the game at one time, they were grouped 3 per colour, to give more choice and also so that if one civ died another of the same colour could take its place.

Given that basic setup, I don't see how you can avoid having certain civs be mutually exclusive; tho' it has been suggested in other threads that we might have up to 16 active civs in Civ3 - in which case they could (and should!) certainly assign Germans and French to different groups so they can be played against one another.

I think your idea of having historically successive civs grouped together is a nice one, but perhaps hard to apply uniformly in all cases - you might still end up with some civs that overlapped historically.

Of course, with Civ2 you can edit RULES.TXT to alter the colour of any civ (provided you swap it with another, so there are still 3 civs per colour). You could do that now if you wanted games involving both the French and the Germans...

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by Ilkuul on 04-12-2001 09:20 PM If I understand it correctly, the colours were assigned in Civ1 simply to help distinguish the 7 civs; then in Civ2 we were given 21 civs to choose from, but because there was still the limitation that only 7 could occur in the game at one time, they were grouped 3 per colour, to give more choice and also so that if one civ died another of the same colour could take its place. Given that basic setup, I don't see how you can avoid having certain civs be mutually exclusive; tho' it has been suggested in other threads that we might have up to 16 active civs in Civ3 - in which case they could (and should!) certainly assign Germans and French to different groups so they can be played against one another. I think your idea of having historically successive civs grouped together is a nice one, but perhaps hard to apply uniformly in all cases - you might still end up with some civs that overlapped historically. Of course, with Civ2 you can edit RULES.TXT to alter the colour of any civ (provided you swap it with another, so there are still 3 civs per colour). You could do that now if you wanted games involving both the French and the Germans...

Yeah! It will be a huge problem to include a civ such as the bysantines following the romans, since the roman empire controlled all of bysantium. This will make the naming of cities a bit difficult, which is probably why the bysantines have never appeared in the civ-games. Which they most sertainly would if this problem didn't excist (Bysantine empire lasted for almost a millenium!). On the colour issue, what I meant was that every civilization could have any colour, so that any civ could play at the same time. This will not be possible if my suggestion works, though...

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by King Richard on 04-12-2001 09:31 PM On the colour issue, what I meant was that every civilization could have any colour, so that any civ could play at the same time.

OK, sorry, I misunderstood you - apologies for the long unnecessary explanation about colours! Yes, it would be good if the civs were defined separately from the different-coloured game 'slots'... Can only hope!

[King Richard]

Well, it's nothing to say sorry for, is there. You're the one that wrote it...

[SerapisIV]

I say get rid of colors altogether. Someone in an earlier thread talked about using mini-flags instead, this also would help those who are color blind by adding texture to the civ-identifiers.

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-12-2001 10:10 PM I say get rid of colors altogether. Someone in an earlier thread talked about using mini-flags instead, this also would help those who are color blind by adding texture to the civ-identifiers.

Excellent idea! We should take notice of people that are colour blind! Perhaps by using the principle in Alpha Centauri. That one uses special city-styles on every civ!

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by King Richard on 04-12-2001 10:22 PM Excellent idea! We should take notice of people that are colour blind! Perhaps by using the principle in Alpha Centauri. That one uses special city-styles on every civ!

That's be kind of tough as there aren't too much differences in architectures between European civs. You could probably only get 7 or 8 really distinctive city-styles, and I want more civs then that. I could deal with cultural styles as in CivII though as you said, I'd love to have more. The colorblind problem was mainly with units as the poster said he kept attacking the wrong civ cause the shade of gray appeared the same.

[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 12, 2001).]

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-12-2001 10:34 PM That's be kind of tough as there aren't too much differences in architectures between European civs. You could probably only get 7 or 8 really distinctive city-styles, and I want more civs then that. I could deal with cultural styles as in CivII though as you said, I'd love to have more. The colorblind problem was mainly with units as the poster said he kept attacking the wrong civ cause the shade of gray appeared the same. [This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 12, 2001).]

I see your point. But how about if there is colour, city-style and flags? Only that the flags would probably be har to see, if they aren't big enough...

[SerapisIV]

I thought about that. Maybe if the flags were large and were animated (heck the units are animated) to wave behind the unit. It might block more of the terrain, but I'd rather have larger terrain and smaller units. Makes the civ map just feel bigger

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-12-2001 10:43 PM I thought about that. Maybe if the flags were large and were animated (heck the units are animated) to wave behind the unit. It might block more of the terrain, but I'd rather have larger terrain and smaller units. Makes the civ map just feel bigger

Not a bad idea! Flags has always had a big significance to civilizations trough time, it's only fair that they give flags a bigger place in civ3!

[SerapisIV]

They don't even have to be flags, for the Romans it could be the centurian standard. Not sure what the American civs would have. Also, do you put modern flags over ancient civs? Example, Russia, do you have the Soviet or Russian flag? For Tokugawa and Japan, was the current red circle used then? Its an idea, but its got some options

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-12-2001 10:54 PM They don't even have to be flags, for the Romans it could be the centurian standard. Not sure what the American civs would have. Also, do you put modern flags over ancient civs? Example, Russia, do you have the Soviet or Russian flag? For Tokugawa and Japan, was the current red circle used then? Its an idea, but its got some options

This is a tough one! As we know, flags have changed through time. Considering that civilization 3 will be a game for people that haven't got the knowledge of history and flags as other people (kids), I think that the best thing is to use the most modern flags, or most famous flags there is. For those civilizations that we don't know that much about, we'll just have to invent something. By the way: Japan has used the red circle since "the beginning of the japanese". It's sacred to them...

[SerapisIV]

To increase the customization ability. The flags should be stored as small bitmaps so you can import your own. An nice, easy way to customize a civ without much tweaking.

[King Richard]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-12-2001 11:12 PM To increase the customization ability. The flags should be stored as small bitmaps so you can import your own. An nice, easy way to customize a civ without much tweaking.

Why not! But the best thing would be if every civ had different units! I'm dreaming...