Revolutions

[Shadowstrike]

Civilization II makes revolutions too easy. Sure, sure, you go through a couple turns of Anarchy, but its all bloodless and everything. They should change this for Civilization III. A schism everytime you start a revolution would be more realistic, or barring that, a loss of a few population points and some damage incured to units would suffice.
Another problem with revolutions is the radical shifts. In Civ 2, you can shift from Democracy to Fundamentalism to Communism to Monarchy without any penalties. There should be a more significant result if you start a revolution to change governments radically. Ideally, if you shift from Democracy to Fundamentalism, expect intolerance from some of your cities.

[Comrade Dan]

Have some of your Civ break off, like in a civil war. Have the Russian Civil war as a template, or the English civil war. Loyalists and 'modernists' - and you end up in control of modernists trying to wipe out the loyalists.

The fragmentation shouldn't be too big, like 5 out of 30 cities...

[Michael Dnes]

Not all revolutions are blood baths- in Britain the transition from monarchy to republic was called the glorious revolution- no battles (except debatably the battle of the Boyne). As for the transition from republic to democracy- painless. The same is true for nations like Germany, where the government collapsed and was replaced.

[UltraSonix]

What about SMAC's way of fixing "easy revolutions" - pay money based on difficulty level.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Shadowstrike]

Well, mostly, I was refering to the bigger shifts, like from Communism to Democracy. Generally, the penalty should be small or nil from small shifts, like from Republic to Democracy.

[Par4]

Ah but there needs to be a need. Maybe if everyone is 1 religion or most everyone 1 religion they might want fundy, or if there's lots of lower class people or poor people or unemployed they might want commieism. Or if the current government is bad, be it was or loss of economy strength, they might want revolution.

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[FireWater]

quote: from Communism to Democracy.

That reminds me of one thing that should really be corrected:

Monarchy, Democracy, Anarchy, Oligarchy are all forms of state ( how a state is ruled ), Communism is in the same group as free Market or limited Market ( how economy works in the state ).

We have seen Oligarchic Communisms, Fundamentalist Regimes using a limited free Market economy and many other combinations in the "real" world.

Don't compare apples and bananas.

[Sir Shiva]

Ha ha.. religion has a way of sneeking into every thread..

Maybe conversions from despostism/monarchy/republic to democracy could all be v. peaceful.. Conversion to communism, early republic or fundamentalism would involve modernists and loyalists...

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-Shiva
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[Michael Dnes]

Perhaps the longer you have a government form the worse the revolution, to represent the way the establishment is entrenched. Or perhaps there could be the option of slow revolution, over 10 or 20 turns.

[phunny pharmer]

Hey, look what happened to Russia in the second decade of this century.

1) Autocratic monarcy gets itself in a war due to nationalistic ties to the Serbs.
2) Ill-equipped peasant army is worked by German war machine. Example: Tannenberg
3) Autorcratic army loses vast territories to the Germans. Counterattack of 1916(?) recovers some land, but the army breaks apart.
4) Czar is stuck on a railroad siding in the boonies. The Russian revolution begins.
5) The provisional government, a collection of liberals, forms to continue the war. From the start, the solviets, or workers councils, work to undermine the regime.
6) Lenin is given safe passage to Russia from Switzerland. The Germans try to subvert the Russian war machine. They are successful.
7) Anarchy and civil war. The provisional government falls out of favor. Lenin, by a series of meneuvers by himself and his henchmen, take control of the solviets, and eventually oust the provisonal government.
8) Lenin makes peace with the Germans. In the treaty of Brest-L(something (it's been three monthis since the AP)). Russia gives up 1/3 of its population.
8) Civil disorder and civil war. 'Reds' fight the 'Whites', in a great civil war. Reds hold Moskow, while Whites attack from sides of the empire. Whites are not united, and are fought off. Lasts 1918-20
10) Lenin dies (1923). Power sruggle follows.
11) The New Economic Plan is implemented (1920's). Viewed as 'two steps foward, one step back', it restores limited capitalism so that the govenment can increase productivity. Russia is a wasteland at this time.
12) In the purges, communism is reinstated.

I guess this isn't exactly a planned revolution...

[Shadowstrike]

This brings us to a wonderful idea. What about unplanned revolutions? Sure, they happen under Democracy with a city in civil disorder, but what about the revolutions you didn't plan? It could cause a dramatic shift of strategy to deal with an unplanned schism. As a benificial side effect, this could thwart ICSers by having their empire reduced.

[phunny pharmer]

Or how about having parts of your empire go into revolution while other parts try to maintain control- not quite the same thing as a rebellion, as you can choose to side with communist regime as to the monarchy...and watch your empire infight and struggle for power...hehehe...hehehe...

[UltraSonix]

quote: This brings us to a wonderful idea. What about unplanned revolutions? Sure, they happen under Democracy with a city in civil disorder, but what about the revolutions you didn't plan? It could cause a dramatic shift of strategy to deal with an unplanned schism. As a benificial side effect, this could thwart ICSers by having their empire reduced.

Yeah! So if your civ gets too big then different parts of it would want different governments (or SE settings?) and would try to break away. You could change govs to appease the repel group, but the result is that the other group would try to break away because they liked the old way better.

(And I just had another thought - why can't diff parts of the civ be under diff SE/gov? This could be done under the provinces system people here like so much. The condition would be the gov types/SE settings are not too uncompatible with each other.)

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Shadowstrike]

We should really extend this concept to include changes in the SE (or SI)system, assuming that Firaxis will use it. For instance, a schism starts because the communists in your civilization feel threatened by your sudden shift into capitialism (financial system) or the military feels threatened beacuse you now help the merchant class more, and some of your units defect to the new side.

Speaking of the values system, I think we should make it into a sliding bar, i.e., you have to divide your support (using tax money) up between the military, the economy, the scientists and the people. You can try to satisfy everybody, but it would cost a lot of money, or you could satisfy only one faction and leave the rest unhappy (and liable to revolt) Satisfied factions should offer their support cheaper too (for instance, if the military likes you then you can build cheaper units, etc.)

[Christantine The Great]

I think I have an idea.

When you start the revolution you get a timer (based on turns) that tells you how well your government-making is going. The timer is longer if you have had your current government for a long period of time because the old gov leaves a bigger stain to be cleaned up the longer it has been there. During this time you cannot build new military units and you collect half of your taxes. Scientific research is suspended. Also during this time cities or regions can secede from your country.

A city or region will secede because of what it is a major hub or base of. There are three major types of cities. They are science, military and trade.

A science hub will secede if you change from any government to a Fundimentalist gov because that gov supresses scientific research.

A military base (section of empire that has many military units and facilities) will secede if you switch from a any government to a Republic or Democracy because they support peace.

A trading hub will secede if you switch from a Republic or Democracy to anything else because they all have high corruption rates and communist and fundimentalist, too. (those two stifle trade)

A military revolt would take all vet. units except ones in the capital and any city with strategic value 8 squares away from the capital. These cities have more military improvements than trade routes and science improvements. No city limit.

A science revolt would take all science cities that are 8 squares away from the capital. These cities would have more science improvements/wonders than any others in the area. They would take the top 5 away.

A trade revolt would take away the top 5 trading cities that are 8 squares or more away from the capital.

If a revolt is going to happen it will happen within the first 50% of the timer's countdown. When a revolt happens, you have until the end of the timer to take back those cities before they are able to be reconized by the rest of the world as countries. All allies with you will not reconize their independence unless you tell them they can. All countries who hate yours will help them in the civil war by only supplying them with troops, money or tech.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1