I want Staling back

[Skeeve]

Stalin, Hitler, Bolsheviks.. etc. You know who was really responsible?
Karl Marx. A Philosopher who still rules a part of the world from the grave. If you think about it... it was his philosophy that spilled more blood in the last 150 years than all the centuries of human history combined! (I guess Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory helped add fuel to the fire, though)

Marx should be one of CIV's leaders.

"Ever Hear of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons"
-- The Princess Bride

EDIT: Hey how are you supposed to get Underlines?? I thought it was .

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My reach exceeds my grasp!
[This message has been edited by Skeeve (edited March 09, 2001).]

[tmarcl]

quote: Originally posted by Skeeve on 03-09-2001 12:33 PM Stalin, Hitler, Bolsheviks.. etc. You know who was really responsible? Karl Marx. A Philosopher who still rules a part of the world from the grave. If you think about it... it was his philosophy that spilled more blood in the last 150 years than all the centuries of human history combined! (I guess Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory helped add fuel to the fire, though) Marx should be one of CIV's leaders.

Under that argument, then, you would need to add Moses, Mohammed and Jesus Christ (or the Apostle Paul) as leaders. After all, Moses' philosophies still lead the Jews several thousand years later-including those not even in Israel! As for Christianity, it ruled Europe for over a thousand years, and it's philosophies still affect the Western world today to some extent. Islam is certainly the driving force behind the Middle East today as well.

I think what Civ was trying to do, though, is reflect how political leaders made civilizations great, as opposed to their religious philosophies. Adding religious/philosophical leaders as influences over political leaders would be good, but not as the actual leaders themselves.

Marc

[David Murray]

quote: Originally posted by JosefGiven on 03-05-2001 08:07 PM Stalin's body-count? Well into the twenties of millions...Not including the strategic bungles he made during World War Two (Military purges not included). He was a REAL bastard. Hitler didn't even make it into the tens of millions, the second-rate loser. Mao Tse Tung...now he really knew his stuff...

Good God, what are you trying to turn this into? A game between dictators? Whoever kills most is the most evil? Like an arcade game? *sigh*

Some people are just born thick.

[David Murray]

Incidentally, Hitler killed 6 million Jews alone...and many, many, many millions Communists, Socialists, Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc...not to mention the fact that he started the most apocalyptic war in mankind's history, and killed Jews, socialists etc in other peoples' countries...so to all of you IDIOTS who keep telling us that Hitler wasn't that bad compared to Stalin, go and f— yourselves. Most of you are probably too young to remember the Gulf War, let alone WWII and your 8th grade history classes that you probably FLUNKED in.

[David Murray]

quote: You know who was really responsible? Karl Marx. A Philosopher who still rules a part of the world from the grave. If you think about it... it was his philosophy that spilled more blood in the last 150 years than all the centuries of human history combined!

Oh yeah? And, of course, to all of those workers who had to endure the most appalling conditions after the industrial revolution...they were wrong to protest about their genuine exploitation, mmm? Or perhaps you forget that Marx's theory was the original basis from which today's modern-day social democracy has evolved, as seen all throughout Europe, which is both alive and working many times better than the rampant conservatism we see in the US?

Hey, perhaps Adam Smith is to blame for writing his diatribe in favor of the free market...that killed a fair few people, too!

[kolpo]

The idea that Stalin followed the philosofie of Marx is a popular but wrong idea. I have both read "Das Kapital" and "The Communistic Manifest" and altrought I didn't agreed with there(Marx and Engels) ideas where they certainly not the ideas of Staling:

-Marx talks about "The despotism of the labor class" not "the despotism of one person". Marx idea was: start a revolution, destroy the power of the ruling class(only there power should be destroyed not there life), and let then the labor class on a democratic way rule the nation.
-Stalin his idea was: I do wathever I want and if someone disagrees will he, his family, his town(sometimes even his nation) be killed.

-Marx found the life conditions of the labor class and the farmers should be inproved.
-Stalin didn't care about the life condition of anybody he only cared about getting nuclear missiles, improving his army and expanding his teritory(He refused to give Poland his libertyv back after WII for excample). He has killed millions of farmers with his stupid farming policy.

Staling is a complet bastard.
Marx wanted to improve the life conditions of the labour class but there is one problem with his ideas: They don't work, nobody has every succeeded in bringing them to practice and all tries to do so have failed. But Adam Smith his ideas have also failed there is no single complet free capitalistic economy left at this moment. Even the US has scaled taxes(the rich pay more then the poor) and has laws who limit the "freedom" of companies. The real big winner is "human capitalism" which means: A capitalistic economy but with some laws and organizations to protect the employee class and the poor. Sweden is the best excample of that system but in fact are all modern capitalistic nations "human capitalistic"

[JosefGiven]

quote: Good God, what are you trying to turn this into? A game between dictators? Whoever kills most is the most evil? Like an arcade game? *sigh* Some people are just born thick.

Chill, mate... blimey. Please note that I was drunk when I made the post you were refering to, so that can count as quite a respectable handicap, facts wise. Plus, you would do well to look up "gallow's humour" in the dictionary.

quote: ...so to all of you IDIOTS who keep telling us that Hitler wasn't that bad compared to Stalin, go and f— yourselves. Most of you are probably too young to remember the Gulf War, let alone WWII and your 8th grade history classes that you probably FLUNKED in.

Again, relax. It's just not worth losing your rag if one of us makes a **** -up.

I've re-read the drunken post I made, and although I was quite pleased with the general standard of English used (for one so mashed), I must agree that I needed to check my facts. I think my beer-addled mind was trying to get across the level of civilian casualties caused by such despots, wars NOT included. So you've every right to draw me up on that I s'pose.

I should make a general apology about the blase tone of said post. I can understand how it could come across as offensive. But I was tapping into the callous, detatched mind-set that these bastards 'enjoy'. In the words of Stalin himself: One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is merely a statistic.

[Skeeve]

quote: Originally posted by tmarcl on 03-10-2001 11:04 AM Under that argument, then, you would need to add Moses, Mohammed and Jesus Christ (or the Apostle Paul) as leaders. After all, Moses' philosophies still lead the Jews several thousand years later-including those not even in Israel! As for Christianity, it ruled Europe for over a thousand years, and it's philosophies still affect the Western world today to some extent. Islam is certainly the driving force behind the Middle East today as well. I think what Civ was trying to do, though, is reflect how political leaders made civilizations great, as opposed to their religious philosophies. Adding religious/philosophical leaders as influences over political leaders would be good, but not as the actual leaders themselves. Marc

Perhaps in light of CIV games a Philosophical leader is best because how else could someone live for 6000 years?!

Military leaders effect the most change in a short period of time, but it's the Philosopher's and Religious ideas which continue to rule through the millenia...



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My reach exceeds my grasp!