VERSION 2: The Myth of a Bugless Civ3

[yin26]

Troll,

Very well-said. I don't want to give the impression that Civ3 has to be "perfect" or we'll somehow revolt. First, I think Sid is amazing. He WILL deliver, and this Civ3 will be perhaps the most fun TBS game in years. Quite likely, actually.

What I am thinking of are more like "infinite missile" range bugs or problems in computing resource penalties, etc. For a VAST majority of players, these issues are essentially insignificant. "Sure, would be nice if they were fixed, but no big deal."

That is a sane reaction. The "normal" reaction.

But some of us Civ fanatics are NOT normal. We are a bunch of anal-retentive but highly observant individuals who dread the thought of these issues never being addressed. Some will try to fix the game themselves. They have that skill. I certainly don't and must therefore rely on Firaxis to do it for us.

My only advice to you personally on this is: Let the "bug freaks" do our best to make things clear for Firaxis come patch time. Ignore the bug forum and simply play and enjoy Civ3. Then when the patch comes out, download it and enjoy the benefits (hell, you might not even notice much or any difference).

In the end, I think Civ3 will be the last of the "true" Civ games. After this I'll bet it's gonna be 3D blah blah blah. Even if not, I am almost sure this will be the last time Sid himself will visit this game in its current form. So in a sense, I'd like the record to show that the fans and Firaxis worked their damndest to make it, shall I say, nearly perfect.

No *****ing. No moaning. Just hard work and the hope of solid results.

[Grandpa Troll]

Yin

I support you 100%..I am at heart anal retentive..(or It was something to do with anal I have been called?????..now what was that???)


I will continue to monitor your posts on bugs(and others as well) so as to be informed as I allways find your posts more than merely colorful and entertaining(although i must admit they are allways that!!), it has real underlying content!

Keep up your clear and concise mission, march the march..fight the fight..keep chin up and be of good courage Yin!

In all battles a true clear question outpaces our conscience decisions, it is that which fuels our sub-conscience drive and determinination..and that question will and always has to be..:

It is not what is gained, but what is lost in a confrontation?


We all go in the paths of those who have gone before us..thus we see through a precise and concise vision how things were incompleted, the shortfalls and even more than obvious pitfalls!

I see where you Yin as well as others can greatly assist the Apolyton Community..as well as Firaxis..and yes even Sid Meier Himself with dodging pragmatic issues...


Trivia..

I grew up in Maine in 1950's,1960's and 1970's as a young man..Big Time Boston Red Sox Fan...
Do you know what evil lurked within the home stadium of The Redsox?

It was the Monster..in Left Field..Not many hitters could top this Behemoth wall..

Well eventually the wall came down somewhat so it was more enjoyable and acceptable...
You can help bring down the "Big Green Monster"..within the gaming world..that being the "Unacceptable production,manufacturing and distribution" of substandard product!

I salute you!

Last story my friend...

A young Chinese man yearned to be a Shaolin Monk..to learn the way of this well respected but often elusive Martial Arts Master..shrouded in secrecy to the techniques, one could only stand inawe at the tremendous abilities of such a priest. This man finally, after telling his friends that he would one day be a Monk, was indeed accepted into this tight knit community. Inside he eagerly awaited his lessons on fighting skills, but to his dismay his Sifu, or Master..told him to pick up this Cauldron with his forarms and carry it more than a mile to this streambead of water. There he was instructed to lower the cauldron down to grown and fill it using only his cupped hands..by splashing water into it. Then repeat process of carrying it back to camp..unloading same way..splashing with a cupped hand until empty. Man was he ticked off and dissapointed..well he resigned himself to what he thought was a very mundane task. Day in..day out..week in week out..month in month out..~sigh~..one day he leave temple..go home..his friends all gather around him shouting "Show us Shaolin Techniques"..he was embarrassed..then he got ticked off..and at his feet was placed a table made of a very strong wood..strong as Oak..he thought of bragging all the years to his friends and all the years he felt were wasted when he yelled out in frustration a moan and struck down upon the table...SHATTERING it in two..Much to his amazement and his friends..they Cheered and hugged him for he had won there respect with his seemingly super technique..he was surprised for he had no idea how all that time what seemed to be doing no good was indeed taking shape and when he called upon it..it worked!!

You Yin keep working and soon one day all Bugs shall hopefully be gone!


Your Friend


Troll


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Hebrews 11:1

Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for and things unseen

[joseph1944]

I'm going to get into trouble with some people here, however this is my take on a bug. A bug is something that makes the computer lock up or crash. The fact that an airplane and ship can be on the same tile and you can not shoot the plane or ship is not a bug to me. In fact until I read about it here I did not know it existed. All you have to do is change the rules to allow shooting the plane down and sinking the ship at the same time.
Yin I though the letter from DAN M. was a very good letter explaining how hard it is to make a game when as one of our Apolytoner said there are several hundred difference types of computer out there. Some of our people think it should not be that hard. Let's look at some hours first.
Civ 2, CTP, SMAC, and CTP 2 take about 40 plus hours to play one game. Let's say for now that you can only buy 100 computer with difference video cards, audio cards, disk drives (CDs, DVDs, Disks), Hard disks, Mother boards etc. Now you want the company to build a bug free game to run on all 100 systems. So what you are saying is that the company must go out and buy 100 computers, and then test the game on each one. If there is only one QA person in the company then it would take 2 years of QA to play test the game one time on each computer also at the same level of play (easy medium, hard)(a work year in the United State is 2080 hours. Base on 40hrs work/week. State with more than 10 holiday less time.). If there are 2 QA in the company it would only be 1 year of play testing the game. Remember this is after the game is close to being finnish. How many QA people should a company hire? And I bet their salary are not cheap either. I belive Firaxis will do the best they can, however their best may not be what some people expect.
Activision told Computer Gaming World three months ago that they were going to devote 75% of their time to Play Station where it will be very easy to build a bug free game. They only have worrie about one system instead of 100 systems. There will be more later MAYBE!!!!!!!!


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[Grandpa Troll]

(Troll peers from beneath his bridge..notice eeriey silence and darkening storm clouds arise quickly from east..all the while the wicked whitch music from Wizard of Oz playiong loudly in background)


(Woe is me I fear Yin and other will Gnash and Gnarl with them thar pointed teeth upon poor unsuspecting Goldie Locks..um..er..joseph1944)

Im not involved take your fight somewhere else!!




J/K

Troll

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Hebrews 11:1

Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for and things unseen
[This message has been edited by Troll (edited March 08, 2001).]

[yin26]

quote: So what you are saying is that the company must go out and buy 100 computers, and then test the game on each one.

Actually, the smart (and financially sound) gaming companies realize a very basic formula: The more systems the games runs on, the broader your audience for this and for the next game. In other words, the burden is on the COMPANY to decide how much to invest on testing.

Black and White, for example, has been and is being tested by 1,000 people from all walks of life (on many different systems, as far as I know). Command and Conquer had a testing room full of non-stop testers in there (of course, using the same systems setup, however). Other companies go for a full public beta, if for anything just to try to catch major system issues in the "real world."

The problem, however, is that Jeff Morris is a one-man QA department (like you guessed). So even if he stages a 1,000 person or public beta, how can he possibly handle all the feedback? I think SMAC's group of testers was something like 20-30. Certainly manageable, and they did what they could, but isn't that a bit of a risk?

Unfortunately, I have heard nothing from Firaxis to indicate they will alter that approach much. The last I heard the beta-testing base was going to double, or something like that. Let's just assuming 100 testers. Just 10% of that for Black and White and...that game has been much longer in development (though its new concept kind of demanded that).

This brings me back to my point. No, in fact, I do NOT expect Firaxis to try for a large-base beta test. This means that we "freaks" at Apolyton have a choice: Slowly find the bugs and slowly report them in a haphazard way or from DAY 1 form a mini-public beta group and maximize the 2 or 3 patches we might expect.

I can say that Jeff Morris has been EXCELLENT in responding to our feedback. The most difficult thing, though, is that from the time he submits a list of issues for the programmers to the time the patch is released, a month or two goes by...during which time even more bugs are found. Then when that patch is released, people rather unfairly say: "But what about all this OTHER stuff we found?! AND this new patch introduced a NEW problem. Firaxis sucks!" So trying to avoid this, Firaxis can take longer to wait and test the next patch, which frustrates even more people.

I was devestated when that happened with SMAC and began to truly understand Jeff's position over there. So being a pragmatist I am saying:

Let's form a tight-knit group dedicated to discovering as much as humanly possible in the first weeks of owning Civ3. We prioritize it as much as possible and make Jeff's job much easier. We also act to remind people how the process works so we give Firaxis a fighting chance of dealing with the unreasonable yelling that might likely surface.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 09, 2001).]

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 on 03-08-2001 11:22 PM I'm going to get into trouble with some people here, however this is my take on a bug. A bug is something that makes the computer lock up or crash. The fact that an airplane and ship can be on the same tile and you can not shoot the plane or ship is not a bug to me. In fact until I read about it here I did not know it existed. All you have to do is change the rules to allow shooting the plane down and sinking the ship at the same time.

I must agree. As Yin has explained in a different context, this is a game, not history. Its not even a "historical game" ala TOAW or EU. So what if you can ship chain? I mean you cant stop a battleship with a coastal fortress built in the Renaisance - nor is it historically accurate that parts of the world will remain unmapped until space flight. So little gameplay bugs, while they can detract from balance and fun, are not killers the way that crashes to your desktop, or worse, sytem freeze and reboot errors are. Yet it is precisely these latter that are most difficult for QA to prevent, given the diversity of systems.

Lord of the Mark

[wittlich]

I too concur, I like playing multiplayer (be it CIVNET, CIV2, TOT, CTP, or CTP2)...but the "bugs" is what soured me to CTP2. By "bugs" I mean the constant resyncs, crashes to desktop, and freezes. These my freinds are "Bugs" of the nastiest type As far as a dumb AI or diplomacy not working like it should, PW not being allocated like it should, or even a unit not behaving as it should...these are all easily worked around and the game can still be enjoyable - these are just nuisances inheritable to a game of this caliber (concider it an additional challange to the game ). However, when a problem stops a game from being playable - that is a "BUG" which needs to be addressed.

[joseph1944]

Troll don't get me wrong I would love to see a bugless game, however after Jeff M. stated his story I understand how difficult that is with all of the difference type of computer that are out there. Last Sat. 3/3/01 I went to Vallejo Computer Show and you would be amazed of just how many computer there are. The prices went from about $800. to $2000. So if a gaming company when and brough 20 of these systems that would cost from $16,000. to $40,000.00, and if the company only had 20 employee total how many of them are engineer and how many are artis etc. That means some of those computers would just sit there until they were ready to play test the game. A lot of money sitting around doing nothing most of the time.
There is another reason I think the way I do. Back in 1983/4/5 I was working for Code 180 Training Dept. Mare Island Naval Shipyard. There was this other person name Bruce working there. Bruce was able to write programs for the MAC and IBM PC. I use to watch him write his programs for our code and saw how difficult it was. He would be writing lets said line 231 and he would said Oh this line would conflict with line 25 and he would go change line 25 but then he said this change will not let line 126 work so he had to change line 126. The guy was very sharp. He was able to keep all of his lines in his head. I wanted to make a game back then but was unable to convince Bruce to help. He said someone would make it. He was part right because a few years later Micro Prose made MOO and Firaxis made SMAC which was somewhat in the ball park to the game that I wanter to make. Guess who ran both company when those games were made. My game was going to be our own solar system first, build a moon base and other base on the Planets then go to A.C. Of couse since the Cold War was very Hot then it was going to be the U.S. and W. Europe against the Soviet Union and E. Europe with an Alien or two helping or hurting the cause. It would have been fun for sure, but it did not happen Oh Well. Enough for now.
joe

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[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Grandpa Troll]

(Scratching head..this place is pretty kewl!)

(No knifing in back or shooting someone for an opinion)


Here Ye Here Ye Here Ye


Come one Come all to voice opinions as to whether we should accept or Nay decline a Bug-Filled Product!

I am really liking these folks in the Civ III Forum..you guys can actually chat without being rude!!

Yippee Kay Yay!!!


Troll

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Hebrews 11:1

Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for and things unseen