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**CerberusIV** · January 7, 2003, 11:18

Thinking back to the map you originally posted from your game I would suspect that the AI's each being on their own continent is what drove them to build powerful navies - not something that happens on every map.

Having just won on a two continent map with nuisance raids by AI battleships I did note that the AI quickly withdraws damaged ships. My own navy was busy elsewhere covering my invasion forces but I was able to counter the AI battleships by moving stacks of artillery by rail to bombard their ships. I was further on in tech so could bombard them down to one HP with artillery and then finish them off with a cruise missile.

(Incidental question - do cruise missiles ever miss, I have never had one fail to do some damage. If they worked that well in real life then war with Iraq would be over already!).

I am just starting a monarch level game on an 80% water map so it will be interesting to see if I find myself in your situation.

**PrinceBimz** · January 7, 2003, 12:38

Yes artillery does a good job at fighting off surface ships. I had to use cannons at first until I got the artillery researched. Now those carriers, that was another thing, they were too far out and I never had the tech so I could build fighters. When you are talking 3-4 carriers with full loads of bombers...that was problems for me. My rails were being destroyed down to nearly nothing from the carrier bombers. At least you had a navy out there

I never even had one...LOL. Well I had one but if you want to call 3 or 4 ships a navy then ok. If you have an 80% water map on monarch I would definitely think you may see large navy battles. Yeah those AI's just fought very well on this map, large invasions and large navies. At last, I do think those cruise missiles miss but not very often and I am not sure.

Oh by the way, before wars even started out I had my attack on american all planned out to what I thought would be perfect. I had an evil feeling the whole while my loaded ships were travelling across the ocean to america. All the while I was being polite and peaceful to them and laughed as my ships were enroute. I feel like Japan and that I had awaken a sleeping giant

Since my so called perfect attack failed badly and I got countered in the worst way. Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA

**bobbo008** · January 7, 2003, 13:01

"Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA "

it's actually "dont mess with Texas"

**CerberusIV** · January 7, 2003, 15:20

Actually I've been doing to the AI what they did to you with carriers loaded with stealth bombers sitting just outside the range of the AI's bombers and reducing their cities to rubble. I rather enjoyed it! (I wonder if the AI has feelings)

It's not nice to be in a lose:lose situation though. Better luck next time.

**Master Zen** · January 7, 2003, 16:41

I like big navies too, if only because I love to see the seas swarm with my ships. I especially love those nuclear subs hiding in enemy territory, attacking anything that moves.

I usually mod the game giving Destroyers an attack of 8 as to give them a disadvantage when attacking battleships. On the other hand, I give Nuke Subs an attack of 16, since in real life subs are devastating if they are allowed to get the first hit.

It would have been sweet if Aegis Cruisers could carry Cruise Missiles.

**PrinceBimz** · January 7, 2003, 17:35

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Actually I've been doing to the AI what they did to you with carriers loaded with stealth bombers sitting just outside the range of the AI's bombers and reducing their cities to rubble. I rather enjoyed it! (I wonder if the AI has feelings)

It's not nice to be in a lose:lose situation though. Better luck next time.

Sometimes I wonder too, the AI certainly seems to get pissed sometimes...lol. I am definitely on a losing streak here but I will to do better next time. Seems in your game, the AI is better off then I was, at least it has bombers. Oh towards the very end I was able to sink an american carrier with my destroyer! I felt a little proud after that.

**bobbo008** · January 7, 2003, 20:25

how come the AI detects subs when it's in the Middle Ages

**Tattila the Hun** · January 8, 2003, 06:24

In my experience cruise missiles miss more often than they hit... I'd love to see "tactical bombers" with the lethal sea bombard enabled.

**TacticalGrace** · January 8, 2003, 06:58

I had a great game archipeligo game where naval combat became super important. I had switched on lethal bombardment of naval units and suddenly the carrier became an essential part of the navy. Sinking enemy carriers became the most important task for the navy. stealth fighters actually become useful here too because they have the recon range needed to locate enemy fleets so you can stay out of range till it's time to strike.

**Tattila the Hun** · January 8, 2003, 08:01

In original CIV, using bombers as a shield for carrier was fun. That way, you could transport 16 bombers with one carrier.

**planetfall** · January 8, 2003, 10:44

Originally posted by bobbo008
how come the AI detects subs when it's in the Middle Ages

This caused me to pause in last game also, until I figured out the
invisible of subs only applys if at sea. If within 2 tiles of AI coast, not yours, then the AI will see and attadk subs.

Deep water and those swarms of ironclads ignore the puny sub. Even after sub attack they can't find them. Life is good.

== PF

**planetfall** · January 8, 2003, 11:23

Originally posted by PrinceBimz

Oh by the way, before wars even started out I had my attack on american all planned out to what I thought would be perfect. I had an evil feeling the whole while my loaded ships were travelling across the ocean to america. All the while I was being polite and peaceful to them and laughed as my ships were enroute. I feel like Japan and that I had awaken a sleeping giant

Since my so called perfect attack failed badly and I got countered in the worst way. Just reminds me why they say don't mess with the USA

What were your attack details? America is only tough in air. Don't waste bombers on them, but normally they are not a match to a well planned attack. Do you have a minimap and details, or save game for us?

What did you know about:



 size/type of american forces

 

 number of american cities was _______

    land 

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______

    navy

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______   



 Your invasion force:

   navy

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______   

       number of transports _______

   land

       number of artillery _______

       best unit ________

       estimated numbers of best unit ______ 



Your invasion plan:

   Number of landing zones: _____

   Landing zones on hills/mountains:______

Invasion checklist:
[ ] you have at least 10 airports to send reinforcements from?
[ ] you can export 5..10 units from your core cities without being attacked by someone else
[ ] you can replace ship losses
[ ] you have a supporting carrier for ship only attacks
[ ] you have jets to protect your carrier

[ ] you have units which can see enemy subs
[ ] you have more than one landing zone
[ ] your landing zone is reasonable distance from AI capital
[ ] your landing zones take advantage terrain defense bonuses
[ ] either AI does not have nukes, or you have a nuke unit advantage

[ ] you have at least 8 artillery. {Normally you would also want
bomber support offshore, but this won't work vs America}
[ ] you have at least 2 settlers
[ ] you have sufficient cash to rush
.. library/temple
.. airport
.. civil def/walls/or radar tower
.. harbor
[ ] if more than 2 AI civs alive, you have alliances in place:
either MPP or MA can be bought.
[ ] you can generate at least 5 new land military units during a long war, or you have a limited objective and plan for peace after getting a few cities.

This should be enought to get you started. Does this help?

== PF

**TacticalGrace** · January 8, 2003, 12:04

Originally posted by planetfall

[ ] you have jets to protect your carrier

Question: can jets perform air-superiority missions from carriers?

my previous experience is that they can't which means the carrier has to be within range of a city (or airstrip in case of PTW)

**planetfall** · January 8, 2003, 12:28

Originally posted by TacticalGrace

Question: can jets perform air-superiority missions from carriers?

my previous experience is that they can't which means the carrier has to be within range of a city (or airstrip in case of PTW)

Yes && No.

NB air-superiority is ONLY defensive supermacy from incoming air attacks.

You get AS protection for your carrier and battle group. You do NOT get AS protection for bombing missions. Not even if your carrier is 1 tile from coastal city. CAn't recall if RFE for Firaxis or not, but in either case don't think this is something they will add quickly, if at all.

Thus recommendation to forget bombing runs on America as soon as they have the UU. Since it is the American UU, they usually have a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of F15's to my planes. Add that to the added power and you have a lose, lose situation. The good news is AI builds F15 higher than bombers and F15 can't hurt land/sea units much. It is better to take a few land/sea losses than to lose a ton of air units to the F15's.

== PF

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Why a navy is sometimes very important...

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