Extend the Age of Sail

[Lancer]

In Civ 2 I could sometimes build a frigate and by the time it got where it was going it would be facing ironclads or even destroyers, and this when I'm #1 in sci!

Lets not give an era that is as exciting as the modern one (to many folks), the age of exploration, short shrift.

Extend the game time of this great and glorious era!

[marcuspeddle]

I wonder if it would be possible to have the number of turns per age adjustable by the user? That would be great because I like the pre-modern eras more than the modern era. Also, like it was said, by the time an army travels any distance to attack a city it's outdated and defeated with no trouble.

[Grumbold]

One of the things that appealed about CtP2 was that the much larger number of turns enabled the pre-modern eras to be more fully explored. I will be delighted if Civ 3 can reproduce this effect while keeping games where war is not so prevalent still feeling smooth and well paced. The danger will be adding another 100 turns of adjusting construction queues and clicking 'end turn' if the human player isn't in the mood to invade anybody.

[Lancer]

Anatolia, Grumbold, I think you guys hit on something. The aspect of both your posts that is really key is how fast time passes. When we're having fun in an age, we want time to pass slowly. If it's just managing cities and hitting end turn, well then we wish we could speed things along. So how about a game turn duration control? If we could double the amount of time that passes during slow times, and halve it during interesting times, then the game would be much more interesting overall. When waiting for things to build the wait would be shorter. When moving forces during wartime, the conflict, and the strategy aspects would be expanded.

Perhaps a peacetime turn duration and a wartime one? Make the whole thing automatic. That way, people who use multiplayer won't get involved in disagreements about what game speed to select.

What do you guys think? Anyone?

[tniem]

Lancer, I like your idea, but have one question.

Isn't this going to slow down research and how fast you go to the next age?

I mean, you like the Age of Sail so you make the turns so that their are more turns during this time. But during the ancient period you eliminate turns. Now what about all the lost production and research during these turns? How will you ever advance to the Age of Sails?

[airdrik]

I agree, if you make the 'time' pass faster, that will only mean that you can make it to future techs by bc 2.
If you could make it so that x turns pass per time you say end turn, that would be something else, and more on the lines of what you say. Of course, units still get the same number of moves per active turn(ie. an armor gets 3 moves if you have it set to 4 turns per active turn, 3 moves for 1 turn per active turn and 3 moves for 1/4 turn per active turn).

Production, science, trade, etc. is calculated proportionally to the time per active turn.

That way you can enjoy tearing your opponents appart in times of war, and quickly skip past times of development.

[Shadowstrike]

Its sad how the Age of Discovery goes by in nearly an eyeblink..... everything goes by so fast.... there shuld be more trechnologies, and more turns, to live out the different ages more fully. Maybe a change of interface every age (just the background, like in Starcraft) with a futuristic background to the interface during the modern/postmodern era, mechanical parts durning the Industrial age and so forth.

[Lancer]

tniem, lets say that in the ancient time there is something you are building that costs 30 shields. If you are interested in the ancient time, or it's wartime (however it's done) and time is passing slowly, then it might take city X three turns to produce the item. If it's a less interesting time, or peace time, then it would lake the city 2 turns to produce it. So, does city X have a production capacity of 10 or 15? Both! This is so because production is a function of a cities ability to produce divided by time. So it is with research. The date at which tech arrives wouldn't change a bit.

airdrik, did the above help at all?

Shadowstrike, I did something once that you might want to try. In the Civ 2 book it tells you how to add sciences into the game. Well, I added the available blank sci in between the Napleonic type sci and the industrial sci. I then added some of the future tech as well, and made it so that ironclads, when they eventually came in, had the atribute of triremes, had to stay in close to shore. I made em slow too...two movement. Sadly, eventaully the game corrupted and I had to erase and reload it. Haven't implemented those changes again since. I should though...

I actually hate it too whem the AI crashes their ships into my port cities in the Napoleon scn. Grrr

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by Lancer on 02-01-2001 08:00 PM tniem, lets say that in the ancient time there is something you are building that costs 30 shields. If you are interested in the ancient time, or it's wartime (however it's done) and time is passing slowly, then it might take city X three turns to produce the item. If it's a less interesting time, or peace time, then it would lake the city 2 turns to produce it. So, does city X have a production capacity of 10 or 15? Both! This is so because production is a function of a cities ability to produce divided by time. So it is with research. The date at which tech arrives wouldn't change a bit.

Lancer,

This will not make you play the desired age for any longer period of time. Yes it will seem longer because you are playing more turns. And yes, you will have more time to think.

But for this to work, everything must be sped up and slowed down at the same rate including movement. The end result is that you might play 100 turns during the Renaissance but the pieces you moved and the techs you researched equate to 10 normal turns. You have just wasted your time because everything must be slowed down to balance the game.

This seems like a very artificial solution to a problem that could be fixed by simply having the amount of years in a turn change sooner, allowing more turns/techs/units during the middle ages.

[Lancer]

tniem, actually the units could still move the same distance with more turns, strangly enough. Try sailing a frigate around a large map in Civ 2. It will take for frigging ever in game years to do it, yet in reality it could be done in a year-year and a half. Movement of units is tied to one thing in Civ 2. Not time, not distance. Units move according to tactical considerations. If you increase the amount of turns you don't change tactical expediency.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Lancer on 02-01-2001 08:00 PM I then added some of the future tech as well, and made it so that ironclads, when they eventually came in, had the atribute of triremes, had to stay in close to shore. I made em slow too...two movement.

Just because the well-known ones sank in storms out at sea... I admit I thought about doing that as well. Actually I thought about changing all non-modern ships to have the trieme 'ability' (curse) since they did have a habit of getting lost at sea. I disagree about the slow move though...I think all ships should be faster. Unfortunately that unbalances them due to their multiple-strike capability.

About the main question, I dunno. Maybe allow the player to drop into a sub-game when conflict starts, and during peaceful times (for the player) the game progresses quickly, cities build faster, and units move farther. Not sure how they could handle this in MP if everyone's always fighting.

[Lancer]

Theben, I based my slowing of the ironclads on the need to constantly stay within range of coaling stations. However you may be right, the wind could be very fickle for the sailing ships.
It was very enjoyable to have the age of sail for an extended period of time, though as I said, the IA hasn't a clue and crashes ships into ports. That made it kind of pointless. Maybe that's why I don't go and set it up again. I wish they would implement both generals (to combine armies under), and also admirials, for fleets. Might help to keep the AI from throwing away its ships piecemeal. What fun it would be to have a broadside to broadside fleet action thundering along.

[Theben]

FYI, my mod pushed transports back until refining, and I've been thinking of pushing back the ironclads until industrialization. In addition, Metallurgy and Magnetism are set up so that they arrive earlier, before musketeer units (i.e., like the fascist mod, somewhat). That would extend your age of sail. Unfortunately, I do not have too many slots left and little personal knowledge of what extra units would improve both the early and late eras of sailing.

[Roman]

I think there should indeed be more turns in a civ III game than in a civ II one and this should extend all eras, but the tech tree also ought to be denser to fill this increased amount of turns.

[don Don]

I like sail, too, and have experimented (I love rules.txt) with ship movement rates more than double the original rates. To lessen the impact of moving units that quickly a cut back the number of holds to half the original. It works well, IMO.

I do agree that the tech tree is too sparse in the Age of Discovery.