***TECH TREE***: General Discussion

[Ian_Notter]

Youngsun In the main I agree with your statements. There was a more serious point in my note, which I did not make enough of. It should be possible for a civilisation to "forget" a technology, as happened to the Chinese in this case.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Yin26,

I understand that you are truly busy and of course I have sympathy for it. But if you wish some fanatics including myself to continue our contributions to the Tech Tree, I think you could at least repost the "Master List", so people might possibly read it!

Granary:
'Phase 1B, dating to the 7th-6th millennium, is characterized by the emergence of pottery and improvements in agriculture. By the beginning of Phase 1B, cattle (apparently Bos indicus, the Indian humped variety) had come to predominate over game animals, as well as over sheep and goats. A new type of building, the small regular compartments of which identify it almost certainly as a granary, first appeared during this phase and became prevalent in Period II, indicating the frequent occurrence of crop surpluses. Burial took a more elaborate form--a funerary chamber was dug at one end of a pit, and, after inhumation, the chamber was sealed by a mud brick wall. From the latter phase of Period I also come the first small, hand-modeled female figurines of unburned clay.

The Period I evidence at Mehrgarh provides a clear picture of an early agricultural settlement exhibiting domestic architecture and a variety of well-established crafts. The use of sea shells and of various semiprecious stones, including turquoise and lapis lazuli, indicates the existence of trade networks(!) extending from the coast and perhaps also from Central Asia.

Striking changes characterize Period II. It appears that some major tectonic event took place at the beginning of the period (c. 5500 BC), causing the deposition of great quantities of silt on the plain, almost completely burying the original mound at Mehrgarh. Nearly all features of the earlier culture persisted, though in altered form. There was an increase in the use of pottery. The granary structures proliferated, sometimes on a larger scale. The remains of several massive brick walls and platforms suggest something approaching monumental architecture. Evidence appears of several new crafts, including the first examples of the use of copper and ivory. The area of the settlement appears to have grown to accommodate an increasing population.

While the settlement at Mehrgarh merits extensive consideration, it should not be perceived as a unique site. There are indications (not yet fully explored) that other equally early sites may exist in other parts of Baluchistan and elsewhere on the Indo-Iranian borderlands.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'India, history of')

I have to admit to be a bit sceptical about granaries in India(present-day Pakistan) antedating granaries in the Middle East by many centuries, while the Middle East was in every aspect ahead of the rest of the world. In the Fertile Crescent agriculture became an established way of life from ~8000BC, in western Pakistan from ~6500BC.

About Mesopotamia:
'This Samarra culture(~5600BC-5000BC) was revealed in the 1960s by the Iraqi excavations at Tell es-Sawwan. The inhabitants of Tell es-Sawwan were peasants like their Hassunan ancestors and used similar stone and flint tools, but in an area where rain is scarce they were the first to practise a primitive form of irrigation agriculture, using the Tigris floods to water their fields and grow wheat, barley and linseed. The yield must have been substantial if the large and empty buildings found at various levels were really 'granaries' as has been suggested. The central part of the village was protected from invaders by a 3-metre-deep ditch doubled by a thick, buttressed mud wall. The houses were large, very regular in plan, with multiple rooms and courtyards, and it must be noted that they were no longer built of pressed mud, but of large, cigar-shaped mud bricks plastered over with clay or gypsum. A thin coat of plaster covered the floors and walls.'
(source: G.Roux:'Ancient Iraq',1992)

About Egypt:
'The archaeological remains of these earliest farmers are known as the Fayum A assemblages. They are dated to around 7000 to 6600 years ago. The Neolithic Fayumians cultivated wheat, three forms of barley and flax. The Fayum evidence provides us with exceptionally rich information on grain storage. This was done in groups of subterranean containers (silos) made of plaited straw. It is estimated that each container may hae contained up to 400 kg of grain, which could have represented a yield of a plot of land of about half a hectare. Groups of up to more than one hundred such containers -called granaries- were found in apparent association with the settlement, and may have originally been the 'property' of a given social group. Remains of equipment for transporting, threshing, parching and grinding the grain were also found in or near the containers; these are groups of wide-mouthed vessels for parching which stand in ashes, harvesting sickles, lower and upper grindstones, baskets made of woven straw, linen sacks and wooden sticks for threshing.

The Neolithic Fayumians also participated -as did other Neolithic groups in Egypt- in the large exchange network through which Red Sea shells as well as turquoise and amazonite from the Red Sea hills and the Sinai were acquired.'
(source: 'History of Humanity vol.I', S.de Laet(ed.))

Map Making:
'Centuries before the Christian Era, Babylonians drew maps on clay tablets, of which the oldest specimens found so far have been dated about 2300 BC. This is the earliest positive evidence of graphic representations of parts of the Earth; it may be assumed that mapmaking goes back much further and that it began among nonliterate peoples. It is logical to assume that men very early made efforts to communicate with each other regarding their environment by scratching routes, locations, and hazards on the ground and later on bark and skins.

The earliest maps must have been based on personal experience and familiarity with local features. They doubtless showed routes to neighbouring tribes, where water and other necessities might be found, and the locations of enemies and other dangers. Nomadic life stimulated such efforts by recording ways to cross deserts and mountains, the relative locations of summer and winter pastures, and dependable springs, wells, and other information.

Markings on cave walls that are associated with paintings by primitive man have been identified by some archaeologists as attempts to show the game trails of the animals depicted, though there is no general agreement on this. Similarly, networks of lines scratched on certain bone tablets could possibly represent hunting trails, but there is definitely no conclusive evidence that the tablets are indeed maps.

The earliest specimens thus far discovered that are indisputably portrayals of land features are the Babylonian tablets previously mentioned; certain land drawings found in Egypt and paintings discovered in early tombs are nearly as old. It is quite probable that these two civilizations developed their mapping skills more or less concurrently and in similar directions. Both were vitally concerned with the fertile areas of their river valleys and therefore doubtless made surveys and plats soon after settled communities were established. Later they made plats for the construction of canals, roads, and temples--the equivalent of today's engineering plans.

A tablet unearthed in Iraq shows the Earth as a disk surrounded by water with Babylon as its centre. Aside from this specimen, dating from about 1000 BC, there appear to have been rather few attempts by Babylonians and Egyptians to show the form and extent of the Earth as a whole. Their mapmaking was preoccupied with more practical needs, such as the establishment of boundaries. Not until the time of the Greek philosopher-geographers did speculations and conclusions as to the nature of the Earth begin to take form.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'map')

Trireme:
1500BC warships in Aegean frescoes
~700BC development of the trireme (East Mediterranean)
260BC quinquireme(East Mediterranean)
(source: 'Times Atlas of World Archaeology',1988)

'In the fifth centuryBC, the ship of the line throughout the ancient world was the trireme, and, except for a few centuries of experiments with larger types, it retained this distinction down to the days of the later Roman Empire. "Trireme" is the English rendering of a word found only in Latin literature; the technical name for the ship, in the Roman navy as well as the Greek, was trieres "three-fitted".

The trireme, a galley whose design was particularly suited for fighting with the ram, was the culmination of an evolution sparked by the introduction of that weapon into naval warfare. The ram was invented probably some time after 1000BC. It inevitably brought into being a more powerful vessel, this inevitably led to attempts to improve speed and maneuverability, and the result was the two-banked warship. By 700BC, such craft, now fitted with raised decking over the centerline to carry a fighting contingent, were in use in Greek and Near Eastern navies.

And then, very likely during the next hundred years, the crucial step was taken of adding a third bank of rowers, and the trieres was born. Two-banked galleys were powered by one line of rowers working their oars through ports in the hull and a second working theirs on or just below the gunwale. Greek naval architects created the trireme by adding an outrigger above the gunwale and projecting laterally beyond it to accommodate a third line.

The new design, though it was eventually to dominate Greek naval architecture, was accepted only gradually. The shipwrights of Corinth seem to deserve the credit for launching the first Greek triremes; when they did so is unsure, but sometime during the seventh centuryBC seems a safe guess. By about 600BC, fleets outside of Greece had taken up the new craft. Yet, during the next half century, the penteconter, presumably the two-banked version, continued to serve as the ship of the line. Finally, toward the end of the sixth centuryBC, the new warship, which far outclassed its predecessor, came into its own.'
(source: L.Casson:'Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World',1971)

So I hope it becomes clear that the trireme certainly wasn't the first warship, but was the temporary result of a long development.

Diplomat:
'The late medieval view that the first diplomats were angels, messengers from heaven to earth, is perhaps fanciful, but diplomacy predates recorded history. Early tribes negotiated about marriages, trade, and hunting. Early societies had some attributes of states, and the first international law arose from intertribal relations. War was uncommon, but defensive alliances existed. Messengers and envoys were accredited, sacred, and inviolable; they usually carried some emblem, such as a message stick, and were received with elaborate ceremonial. Women were often sent as envoys because of their mysterious sanctity and their use of sexual wiles to prevail. As peace negotiations were most important, women were assigned this task.

Knowledge of the diplomacy of early peoples depends on sparse evidence. Traces exist of Egyptian diplomacy in the 14th century BC, but none has been found in West Africa before the 9th century AD. China had leagues, missions, and an organized system by the 8th century BC. Proof exists of sophisticated Indian diplomacy in the 4th century BC, implying earlier activity.

The most consistent evidence of early diplomacy, however, has been found among eastern Mediterranean peoples. Records of treaties between Mesopotamian city-states date from 2850 BC. Thereafter, Akkadian (Babylonian) became the first diplomatic language, serving as the international tongue of the Middle East until it was replaced by Aramaic. There exists a diplomatic correspondence between the Egyptian court and a Hittite king on cuneiform tablets in Akkadian, the language of neither, from the 14th century BC. The oldest treaties of which full texts survive, from about 1280 BC, were between Ramses II of Egypt and Hittite leaders. There is much evidence of Assyrian diplomacy in the 7th century and of the relations of Jewish tribes, found chiefly in the Bible, with each other and other peoples.

But the tradition leading to the present world system of international relations began in ancient Greece. The earliest evidence of Greek diplomacy is in its literature, notably the Iliad and the Odyssey. Otherwise, the first traces of interstate relations concern the Olympic Games of 776 BC. Later, the amphictyonic leagues, initially religious, became diplomatic centres in the 6th century as interstate entities with assemblies, extraterritorial rights, and permanent secretariats. In the mid-6th century, Sparta was actively forming alliances. By 500 BC, it had created the Peloponnesian League. In the 5th century, Athens led the Delian League against the Persians. By then, arbitration was common among the Greek states.

Greek diplomacy took many forms. Heralds were the first diplomats, originating in prehistory, and were protected by the gods with an immunity that other envoys lacked. Their protector was Hermes, messenger of the gods, who became associated with all diplomacy. The herald of Zeus, he was noted for persuasiveness and eloquence but also for knavery, shiftiness, and dishonesty, imparting to diplomacy a reputation that its practitioners are still trying to live down.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'diplomacy')

Library:
'In earliest times there was no distinction between a record room (or archive) and a library, and in this sense libraries can be said to have existed for almost as long as records have been kept. A temple in the Babylonian town of Nippur(the religious centre of Sumer), dating from the first half of the 3rd millennium BC, was found to have a number of rooms filled with clay tablets, suggesting a well-stocked archive or library. Similar collections of Assyrian clay tablets of the 2nd millennium BC were found at Tell el-Amarna in Egypt. Ashurbanipal (reigned 668-c. 627 BC), the last of the great kings of Assyria, maintained an archive of some 25,000 tablets, comprising transcripts and texts systematically collected from temples throughout his kingdom.

Many collections of records were destroyed in the course of wars or were purposely purged when rulers were replaced or when governments fell. In ancient China, for example, the emperor Shih huang-ti, a member of the Ch'in dynasty and ruler of the first unified Chinese empire, ordered that historical records other than those of the Ch'in be destroyed so that history might be seen to begin with his dynasty. Repression of history was lifted, however, under the Han dynasty, which succeeded the Ch'in in 206 BC; works of antiquity were recovered, the writing of literature as well as record keeping were encouraged, and classification schemes were developed. Some favoured a seven-part classification, which included the Confucian classics, philosophy, rhymed work (both prose and poetry), military prose, scientific and occult writings, summaries, and medicine. A later system categorized writings into four types: the classics, history, philosophy, and miscellaneous works.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'library')

[yin26]

S. Kroeze,

I was actually waiting on something from somebody before continuing, but I'm still here. Look for an update hopefully soon.

[Kerinsky]

I'm not sure where the latest version of the information you've gotten so far is posted, so just ignore this information if it's a repeat.

Mass Production - I don't think in Civ2 this specifically applies to the assembly line (a la Ford) but rather interchangeable parts, Eli Whitney's greatest invention. This can be dated to 1797 or 1801. See http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...+76879,00.html

Also about stealth technologies. This can be dated back to much early than the 80's. All the basic knowledge was present in the mid to late 1940's. After radar was first uesd Trial and error produced planes that were less visible to radar, if not "stealthy". Three things really allow the development of true stealth aircraft. First: Powerful computers that could handle the calculations of radar propagation and reflection (groundbreaking work was published by Russians in the 1920's (I belive)) Second: Radar absorbing, yet strong materials like plastics and carbon composites. Third: Fly-by-wire control systems allowed designers to largely ignore control stability issues. Thus if war had pushed the technology we could have easily seen true stealth aircraft in the mid (or even early) 1960's. See http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...110184,00.html
[This message has been edited by Kerinsky (edited April 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Kerinsky (edited April 23, 2000).]

[Az]

About the issue :

what if the chinese were more militarily agressive?

the story of Mongolia and Jingys khan ( I am totally sure I've misspelled it so plz correct me ) shows that science and technology didn't make a big difference .
the truth is the Mongols were illiterate and their ABC is the ABC of another prairy tribe , that was more literate ( perhaps becoz of its proximity to china ) . at the time of Jingys Khan ( or whatever his name is spelled ) China was devided to 3 or 4 separate Kingdoms , one of which he ruined regardless the Huge population and massive City walls . also he oplundered the fertile Valley of the euphrates , a devastation which the Middle East hasn't recuperated from fully even those days! . So saying that using the tech as a the only measure for military superiority isn't true. fierce warriors like Khan's and like the Medieval Europeans ( Skilled from Crusades and bitter Wars with the Muslims which were "playing on their home grounds ") also during those times the reinessance were just at it's cradle and the " Dolche Vida " , "the good life" concept wasnt so deep inrouted inside the population of europe .
as it's known the same concept led to the destruction of the Mighty Roman Empire , because of the change from a relatively small comunity of Hard-Working Peasants and Fierce Warriors the Romans transfered into Luxury Eating (50% Luxury ) lasy City life Civilans .


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Enslave the enemy .
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited April 24, 2000).]

[The Mad Viking]

OrangeSfwr:

I thoroughly agree that most of our sources are West biased, and overlook many eastern achievements. However, we should try to keep a balanced view, free from propaganda. I don't know what the source of your info was, but if the rest of it was as inaccurate as the "Cast iron" section, then it is certainly propaganda, IMHO.

Cast iron weapons were used by the Dorians as they swept through Greece, starting around 1000 BCE.

MASONRY - I personally think that pressed clay does not constitute masonry. Working stone with tools, and/or using fired clay brick, is masonry. As both S Kroeze and I have posted previously, that development is first known with the Temple of Janna, in Eridu, Temple of Al Ubaid in Ur, and the White Temple at Uruk. ABout 3100 BCE.

Bronze working- Eqyptions used bronze alloys around 4000 BCE; I don't know if they had tin or made something approximating bronze. Bronze became a widespead technology in Britain and western Europe about 2000BC.

Port Facility- (OT?) The great harbour in Bristol, opened 1809, was a breakthrough in marine design and technology. This seems to fit in chronologically with the other advances.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear 'Mad' Viking,

I agree with you that its very important to keep a balanced view and to avert a silly debate about the 'superiority' of East or West. That the Middle East with offshoots in Egypt and the Indus valley was for millennia the most advanced civilization is a fact beyond dispute. Irrigation technique, the first cities and writing did all originate in this region. Especially the Sumerians contributed more to the development of civilization and mankind than any other people, though unfortunately they get rarely the esteem they deserve. The dominance of the Middle East lasted until about 500BC.

My opinion, which is the prevailing view of most historians, has nothing to do with being 'Western' or nationalistic feeling. The Sumerians were neither western nor eastern; they lived in Mesopotamia, the 'cradle of civilization', which happens to lie in the middle of the great Eurasian-African landmass. When Gilgamesh built the walls of Uruk, probably most of my ancestors walked around as cavemen, dressed in bear skins.

Road building

'Ancient roads of the Mediterranean and Middle East

The first roads were paths made by animals and later adapted by humans. The earliest records of such paths have been found around some springs near Jericho and date from about 6000 BC. The first indications of constructed roads date from about 4000 BC and consist of stone-paved streets at Ur in modern-day Iraq and timber roads preserved in a swamp in Glastonbury, England. During the Bronze Age, the availability of metal tools made the construction of stone paving more feasible; at the same time, demand for paved roads rose with the use of wheeled vehicles, which were well established by 2000 BC.

Cretan stone roads

At about this time(I suppose this means ~2000BC) the Minoans on the island of Crete built a 30-mile (50 kilometre) road from Gortyna on the south coast over the mountains at an elevation of about 4,300 feet (1,300 metres) to Knossos on the north coast. Constructed of layers of stone, the roadway took account of the necessity of drainage by a crown throughout its length and even gutters along certain sections. The pavement, which was about 12 feet (360 centimetres) wide, consisted of sandstone bound by a clay-gypsum mortar. The surface of the central portion consisted of two rows of basalt slabs 2 inches (50 millimetres) thick. The centre of the roadway seems to have been used for foot traffic and the edges for animals and carts. It is the oldest existing paved road.

Roads of Persia and Babylon

The earliest long-distance road was a 1,500-mile route between the Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean Sea. It came into some use about 3500 BC, but it was operated in an organized way only from about 1200 BC by the Assyrians, who used it to join Susa, near the Persian Gulf, to the Mediterranean ports of Smyrna (Izmir) and Ephesus. More a track than a constructed road, the route was duplicated between 550 and 486 BC by the great Persian kings Cyrus II and Darius I in their famous Royal Road. Like its predecessor, the Persian Royal Road began at Susa, wound northwestward to Arbela, and thence proceeded westward through Ninive to Harran, a major road junction and caravan centre. The main road then continued to twin termini at Smyrna and Ephesus. The Greek historian Herodotus, writing in about 475 BC, put the time for the journey from Susa to Ephesus at 93 days, although royal riders traversed the route in 20 days.

In Babylon about 615 BC the Chaldeans connected the city's temples to the royal palaces with a major Processional Way, a road in which burned bricks and carefully shaped stones were laid in bituminous mortar.

The Indus civilization in Sindh, Balochistan, and the Punjab probably flourished in the period 3250-2750 BC. (This is a somewhat unusual early dating) Excavations indicate that the cities of this civilization paved their major streets with burned bricks cemented with bitumen. Great attention was devoted to drainage. The houses had drain pipes that carried the water to a street drain in the centre of the street, two to four feet deep and covered with slabs or bricks.

Evidence from archaeological and historical sources indicates that by AD 75 several methods of road construction were known in India. These included the brick pavement, the stone slab pavement, a kind of concrete as a foundation course or as an actual road surface, and the principles of grouting (filling crevices) with gypsum, lime, or bituminous mortar. Street paving seems to have been common in the towns in India at the beginning of the Common era, and the principles of drainage were well known. The crowning of the roadway and the use of ditches and gutters was common in the towns. Northern and western India in the period 300 to 150 BC had a network of well-built roads. The rulers of the Mauryan empire (4th century BC), which stretched from the Indus River to the Brahmaputra River and from the Himalayas to the Vindhya Range, generally recognized that the unity of a great empire depended on the quality of its roads.

China had a road system that paralleled the Persian Royal Road and the Roman road network in time and purpose. Its major development began under Emperor Shih huang-ti about 220 BC. Many of the roads were wide, surfaced with stone, and lined with trees; steep mountains were traversed by stone-paved stairways with broad treads and low steps. By AD 700 the network had grown to some 40,000 kilometres. Traces of a key route near Sian are still visible.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'roads and highways')

So I hope it becomes clear that Road Building is not one of the oldest advances, certainly not in comparison with Pottery or City Walls. Apparently there is no good reason to consider it common knowledge, familiar to all civilizations from the start of the game. Only with the rise of the Assyrian empire did Road Building become widely practised.

[mwaf]

A comment on units in the thech tree:

Units (and why not buildings) shouldn't be bounded to advances, neither should adcances be bounded to units.

A good example is that Mathematics require Masnory (and Writing). Maths doesn't even really require Writing and especially not Masonry. However, it's understandable that the unit Catapult requires Masonry. But therefor the unit Catapult should be available when both Mathematics and Masonry isdiscovered and discovering Mathematics wouldn't require Masonry.

Also the Catapult seems to have some sort of wheels on it, so according to my idea of a none-bounded thech tree the Catapult would also require The Wheel (which it in my opinion shouldn't). This little detail could however be solved by having different 'grades' (or something) of a unit (in this case the Catapult). Meaning that the original catapult would be a none-wheel catapult with movement 1. After discovering The Wheel, new Catapults produced would have wheels and therefor should have a movement of 2. The old ones would be upgradable in a city with barracks.

[DanM]

HaHa
I'm sure others have had this,but I've had many games where I was pumping out tanks and mechanized infantry and I didn't even have the wheel yet.I always thought it was stupid.

Anyways,something else I was thinking about.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if; for example,a civ lagging behind in the tech tree makes contact with a more advanced civ.These two civs remain on good terms for a long period of time.
My question is this,
shouldn't it be possible that this lesser civ should be able to,over a given period of time,automatically acquire new advances from the more advanced civ,without research,or 1 for 1 deals,or by getting gifts?Basically,in the real world,advances will be spread to your neighbors eventually,no matter how hard you try to stop it.And anyways,if a country that has the automobile thinks it might be able to make money by selling them in another country,they do it.And the other country gets the advance wheather they researched it or not.
Maybe certain"high end" techs such as Nuclear Weaponry or Space Flight may not spread so easily,but general techs would.
You might say,then why bother researching if it is just"given away"?Well,I think that the nation who first possesses an advance should get some kind of an economic boost from it,wheather it be monetary or city growth or whatever.This might be enough to still want to be first in getting new advances.

[OrangeSfwr]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 04-24-2000 01:12 PM OrangeSfwr: I thoroughly agree that most of our sources are West biased, and overlook many eastern achievements. However, we should try to keep a balanced view, free from propaganda. I don't know what the source of your info was, but if the rest of it was as inaccurate as the "Cast iron" section, then it is certainly propaganda, IMHO.

Well I triple checked my soure with other sources. I first heard that the Chinese first developed Cast Iron during class one day, than I verified that online at two different sources and asked an expert on Chinese history. i am not saying I'm right but do me a favor and re-check your source again. Maybe there are two different definitions of cast iron.

As for the most recent comment "no wheel, producing armor..." how about advances through trade? That's one way that civs have spread information throughout history. Maybe there should be some sort of bonus for trade with a country. One advance for every 100 gold aquired from trade? Or less, something along those lines. Just an idea...


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[mwaf]

Some points on some technologies.

Ships shouldn't require MapMaking, there should be a separate advance as ShipMaking for that. MapMaking on the other hand should be what is says. The map shouldn't be visible before MapMaking is discovered, you should only see the unit you're moving at the moment. When MapMaking is discovered the terrain should be 'mapped'. The distance to the capital, any other city or units shouldn't be correct, meaning the world map would consist of puzzle parts, then if a unit (with it's map part) reaches another map part they are fitted together. If all units on a map part are lost the map information is lost. This would infect both ground and naval units, air units probably won't be an issue, well of course you could leave MapMaking form you discovery plans but that would be some sort of strategic suicide.
Maybe also if a ship goes around the world -> finding out that it came back to the same places -> realizing the world is round -> give an extra boost in science.


My other point is concerning what CAN be discovered. For example how can a civilization that haven't been in contact with water discover ShipMaking (MapMaking if above if forgotten)? Same goes for advances like IronWorking and BronzeWorking, would isolated islands research in IronWorking, no, unless they've had some kind of trade with civs that know of Iron.

[OrangeSfwr]

quote: Originally posted by mwaf on 05-01-2000 11:18 AM MapMaking on the other hand should be what is says. The map shouldn't be visible before MapMaking is discovered, you should only see the unit you're moving at the moment. When MapMaking is discovered the terrain should be 'mapped'.

Ooooh I have often wondered this myself and spoke of it in another thread. I had an idea similar to yours. I don't see why map making leads to trieme, and I don't see why you can have a map without mapmaking as a science.


A few things...
Alphabet should not be a prereq. for Mapmaking. You don't need letters to draw a map...

Mapmaking + Mathematics = Seafaring (trieme)
Seafaring + Astronomy = Navigation (caravel)
Physics + Iron Working = Magnetism (Frigate)
Magnetism + Navigation = Advanced Navigation (Galleon)

Also, your units should get increased range with map making...Going by the current Civ 2 system it would only see the square it's on without map making. With, it has increased range. Once a unit moves out of a square it should be black again. That's the way I see it anyway..comments?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[S. Kroeze]

It seems my previous post about Temple isn't clear so I'll summarize the main points:
In Eridu, one of the oldest cities of Sumer, a series of seventeen temples built on top of one another was excavated. The oldest of these temples was built during Ubaid 1, shortly after 5000BC. And it is possible that someday a still older temple will be excavated. Another, inescapable conclusion to be drawn from the Eridu temples is that the same religious traditions were handed down from century to century on the same spot from about the middle of the sixth millennium BC until historical times.

Polytheism:
'In the early period of agriculture, before the full development of the Neolithic Period, deposits of human skulls appear that suggest the presence of ancestor cults. A spiritual identification between humans and plants apparently played a predominant part in conceptions connected with headhunting and cannibalism. The death of a god was often considered a prerequisite to the appearance and prospering of the plants, and this mythical event was repeated through human sacrifice that was either accompanied by or replaced by animal sacrifice.

At an early stage, in addition to an agricultural connection with the earlier feminine aspects, the masculine aspect appears in the form of portrayals of sexual union and, perhaps, of the "holy wedding," or sacred coupling, as well as in portrayals of couples and families. Among the material remains, however, the direct representation of the male element recedes sharply, yet perhaps the symbol of the axe and probably also that of the bull may indicate the male element. This dualism of the masculine and feminine aspects can possibly be interpreted in terms of father sky and mother earth, and in their union as a couple by which they become parents of the world. In the early civilizations, the conception of a supreme being or a heavenly god (which cannot clearly be recognized either in pictures or in other material objects) plays a minor role. That does not mean, however, that such a conception is necessarily of recent origin but rather that it probably existed at an early period in places where there was no literate tradition (predominantly among pastoral cultures).

Civilizations

The decisive factors that brought about the early civilizations were the new kinds of economic and social organization, the large-scale exploitation of human energy, the formation of ruling classes, hierarchical organization, and the administrative division of labour. Under such conditions polytheism, which had undoubtedly been nascent before, could develop fully. The social order is mirrored in the conception of city and state gods and of a hierarchically organized "state of gods" with a division of labour. The concentration of power and people in one place, in contrast with the wandering of earlier nomadic cultures, enabled fixed central shrines to become influential. Yet the old traditions continued, and not least among them, that of animalism, in the form of conceptions about a ruler of the animals, animal cults, and similar phenomena. Female fertility figures remain generally prominent, such as the Great Mother and the Earth Mother.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'prehistoric religion')

'Our knowledge of Mesopotamian religious and moral ideas derives from a variety of texts -epic tales and myths, rituals, hymns, prayers, incantations, lists of gods collections of precepts, proverbs, etc.- which come, in the main, from three great sources: the sacerdotal library of Nippur (the religious centre of Sumer), and the palace and temple libraries of Assur and Ninive. Some of these texts are written in Sumerian, others are usually Assyrian or Babylonian copies or adaptations of Sumerian originals, even though, in a few cases, they have no counterpart in the Sumerian religious literature discovered so far. The dates when they were actually composed vary from about 1900BC to the last centuries before Christ, but we may reasonably assume that they embody verbal traditions going back to the Early Dynastic period and possibly even earlier, since a number of Sumerian deities and mythological scenes can be recognized on the cylinder-seals and sculptured objects from the Uruk and Jemdat Nasr periods. Before these, positive evidence is lacking, but the unbroken continuity of architectural traditions, the rebuilding of temple upon temple in the same sacred area suggest that some at least of the Sumerian gods were already worshipped in southern Iraq during the Ubaid period.

Uruk (biblical Erech, modern Warka) is one of the most important sites of the Near East, not only by its huge size (four hundred hectares), but also by its virtually uninterrupted occupation from Ubaidian to Parthian times and by the rich archaeological and epigraphic material it has yielded.

The city of Uruk was born of the coalescence of two towns half a mile apart: Kullaba, devoted to the sky-god An (or Anu), the supreme god of the Mesopotamians, and E-Anna ('House of Heaven'), the main abode of the love goddess Inanna (called Ishtar by the Semites). In the centre of E-Anna can still be seen the remains of a mud-brick stage tower (ziqqurat) built by the Sumerian king Ur-Nammu(~2112-2095BC) over a large temple raised on a platform and dating to the Jemdat Nasr period. It is in this area that the German archaeologists, who since 1912 have been digging on and off at Warka for about fifty years, have unearthed at least seven adjacent or superimposed temples and various other cultic installations dating to the second half of the Uruk period. It is also there that they sunk a twenty metre deep well reaching the virgin soil and obtained a stratigraphic section of the site, apparently founded during the Ubaid period.

The archaic temples of Uruk were very similar in plan to those of the Ubaid period at Eridu already described: the buttressed façade, the long cella surrounded by small rooms, the doors on the long side testify to the persistence of architectural traditions as well, probably, as of belief and cult. In E-Anna, they were arranged in pairs, a fact that led Professor H. Lenzen to suggest that they were dedicated not only to Inanna but also to her lover the fertility-god Dumuzi. Particularly remarkable were the lowermost levels with their enormous temples -one of them built on limestone foundations, measured 87 by 33 metres- and their extraordinary 'mosaic building'. One of the archaic temples of E-Anna, the so-called 'Red Temple', owes its name to the pink wash which covered its walls, and at Tell ‘Uquair, fifty miles south of Baghdad, the Iraqis excavated in 1940-41 a temple of the Uruk period decorated with frescoes which, when discovered, were 'as bright as the day they were applied': human figures, unfortunately damaged, formed a procession, and two crouching leopards guarded the throne of an unknown god.'
(source: G.Roux:'Ancient Iraq',1992)

Though the pantheon of the gods perhaps wasn't complete yet the conclusion can be drawn that several gods were worshipped in considerable temples in Uruk and other Sumerian cities from the day they were established. The question how far this tradition reaches back in time cannot be properly answered because we don't have written sources. Considering the conservative charcter of the Sumerians a rather long polytheistic tradition is at least a possibility.

Elephant:
According to the 'Times Atlas of Archaeology' in about 600BC the first war elephants were used in India.

'The war elephant was first used in India and was known to the Persians by the 4th century BC. Though they accomplished little subsequently, their presence in Hannibal's army during its transit of the Alps into Italy in 218 BC underscored their perceived utility. The elephant's tactical importance apparently stemmed in large part from its willingness to charge both men and horses and from the panic that it inspired in horses.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'military technology')
So they weren't very useful; I like their trumpeting though.

[OrangeSfwr]

Possibility for Elephant:
Double defense/offense against horsemen?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[general_charles]

I don't think that there were a lot of battles involving war elephants, they were mainly used as a mental weapon, because of their size to scare the enemies off. I think that there are a lot units that are not into civ2 and that are much more important historically:
- indians (native americans) used hit an drun tactics that were first used in Europe in the XXth century, they had querilla tactics already.
- mounted archers in Mongolia were highly skilled horse riders that managed to inflict heavy casualties amonst their enemies before the main army moved in.

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-- Capitalism slaughterer --