It's Official: Why Civ 3 is No Civ 2.5

[raingoon]

I think the biggest fear about Civ 3, if you could sum it all up, was that it would wind up being Civ 2.5 and not a whole step forward -- a true "Civ 3."

The worrying is over. Civ 3 will be Civ 3. Like others who have been posting here lo these many months (years?!) now, I have hoped and hoped and hoped that those who were creating this game would share our hopes and vision for its potential. This today from the Firaxis Civ 3 "Ask the Team" page:

quote: ...Culture and nationality will play dramatic roles in your Civilization's history. We have systems for reflecting cultural value of cities and civilizations that depend upon the players use of his resources. These values and how they relate to each other cause all sorts of effects...

Excuse me. Culture???? Nationality???? And I'm not even quoting here the equally gratifying customization options that have been hinted at. I can only take my hat off in sincere admiration and gratitude towards everyone at Firaxis working on this project. Further, what's being hinted at here in this passage about culture and nationality being somehow inter-twined with a player's "use of resources" represents nothing less than a bull's eye on the part of the design team.

I've read and contributed posts here for a long time. I summarized whole sections of the List 2 and co-organized the Essential Civ 3 List. I'd like to think I know what "Civ 3 vs. Civ 2.5" means, and as far as I'm concerned they get it. They probably got it all along, right along with us, which shouldn't surprise us. This post today is the best news to come out about this game since it was announced there was going to BE a Civilization 3!!!

In this cynical age of low expectations, when the obituary of the PC game format is seemingly being written every other week, here comes Firaxis saying Civ 3 is going to have culture and nationality represented???!!!! That is just pure, unadulterated, wide-eyed game love on their part, and I would like to say Bravo Firaxis! Keep up the great work.

[bagdar]

Bits and pieces of information are coming and I already am impatient for a game I've missed since the Original Civilization.

HURRY UP! RELEASE IT!

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by raingoon on 01-20-2001 05:51 AM I think the biggest fear about Civ 3, if you could sum it all up, was that it would wind up being Civ 2.5 and not a whole step forward -- a true "Civ 3."

I really want to believe you, raingoon, and based on the info i have seen so far, everything seems very promising indeed (with the exception for those rigid SMAC-style civ-unique benefits - i hope Firaxis comes up with some additional clarifications here. At least make the thing optional).

However, before we go "head over heels" over (admittedly) nice tidbits-info from Firaxis, we should also learn from the fan-reactions of CTP-2. Click below thread, that was posted november 2000 - a couple of days or so, after that game was released:

The IGN-review is an outrage (unbiased opinion)
Now, compare that with player-reactions over at the CTP-2 section TODAY.

Before the release, the common perception about AI-issues was that those things, more or less took care of itself, and that most civers instead could concentrate on suggesting evermore complicated ideas evolving diplomacy, combat, empire management and more. Check out below topic, by the way:
A STATEMENT OF ACTIVISION TO THE CIV COMMUNITY

Admittedly very important areas, i agree. But, ideas in how to level-the-road & boost the AI, and how to come with ideas that lays the burden on human players, was sadly not that highly prioritized - neither by the fans, nor by the CTP-2 team, apparently.
About 3-4 weeks after the game-release however, MarkG was forced to create a new separate forum for CTP-2 AI-issues, because all the AI-related complaints more or less flooded the CTP-2 General forum.

The conclusions i draw from above is that there are basically three Civ-3 areas that towers high above ANY other areas of the game-development. These three areas are the "flesh and bones" priorities - without it, you just have lots of warm clothes on the floor, with nothing to carry it up with:

• Ideas that add to better AI-resistance. Anti-ICS, Anti-BAB, Rise-and-Fall, pre-designated AI city-placements, World conquering uphill-struggle ideas, Strategic diplomacy thumb-rules, A combat-model that deals with the Oliver/Stan vs Fin fighting syndrome, Alternative AI-warfare; threatening boycott/economical strangulation, "Spoonfeed-able" AI-civ's that can be lead-guided in logistic/ strategic areas, and more.
  
• Ideas that add to feedback understandability and overview-ability: Interface and game-feedback related issues. How to make the game-mechanics "transparently" designed, so one understand the principal "how's" and "why's" between player-inputs and game-outputs, within an blink of an eye. Find ways to minimize the amount of mouse-clicks, through various automation. Minimize the amount of screens and tabs, by making each of them bigger and more extensive instead.
  
• Ideas that add to player-creativety and personalization of the game (more open-ended game-customization, more accessible/powerful editing-tools and more extensive/accessible tweak-files, mod-packs, skins and more).

Everything else, like any ideas dealing with combat, diplomacy, economy, techs, units, map-looks and more, is like those "warm clothes". They are very important, and you need them. Otherwise you stand the risk of freezing to death (at least there i am living, as im writing this). But they are still just "warm clothes" type of suggestions.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 20, 2001).]

[yin26]

Well, I agree that they very fact they have addressed certain issues is very promising (I'm most jazzed, actually, about certain rumors of ICS being fixed). But if there's one thing I've learned lo these many years it's that nothing is certain until I have the game in my hands and have run it through a few weeks.

So I'm still in wait-and-see mode.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited January 20, 2001).]

[The diplomat]

The info about cultures sounds AMAZING! Civ3 so far is really shaping up to be the best civ game ever, in graphics and gameplay.

I can't wait to play civ3!

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[Stefu]

Drool! Drool! Drool! Drool!

BTW, Raingoon, do you still have the Essential Civ3 list anywhere? I feel that in this point the designers need to be reminded of it's existence.

And what about religions?

[Jeje2]

quote: Originally posted by Stefu on 01-20-2001 01:17 PM BTW, Raingoon, do you still have the Essential Civ3 list anywhere? I feel that in this point the designers need to be reminded of it's existence.

You mean this list?

And yes, I do like what I read...
I wonder just how many questions they received during first week?

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by bagdar on 01-20-2001 07:45 AM HURRY UP! RELEASE IT!

Badgar, was it you that posted this "question"?:

quote: I can`t wait!!!!!!!!!!Hurry up!!!!!!!Please!!!!!!!!

And,(of course), I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
Was that to much enthusiasm????

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Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
birteaw@online.no

[raingoon]

Ralf, Yin -- no harm in wait-and-see mode. You will certainly have the chance to do plenty of both .

Personally, I've seen enough in the last three weeks to convince me that Firaxis has the right vision. My confidence level in what they're doing is soaring now and I just want to pass that along to them.

[tniem]

Right on raingoon. It was exciting to see them say that nationalities are going to play a major role in the game.

My hats off to the team.

[Evil Capitalist]

I may have missed the big bang, but at least I can watch the second most important creation ever.