Renewable Energies

[krauter]

As an university professor on that field, I would like to empathize the use of renewable energies in CIV3.
While other technologies are discussed quite deeply, the use of renewables in CIV2 (esp. solar and wind) was superficial. Power output of renewables is depending on much more external parameters than conventional power plants and should be considered in the game; as:
local ground surface, distance from coast, latitude (wind)
local climate, temperature, shadowing (solar; some basic ideas have been realized in SMAC, nice !)
water resource, height of mountains (hydro power)
The different properties of solar thermal (works good at high ambient temperatures) and photovoltiac systems (generates electricity directly, works best in cold, but sunny climates) should be considered.
Therefore renewables are of the biggest options of future energy supply (beside fusion I don`t know any other) some more attention should be paid for them.
Additionally renewables should also have some impact on politics and social structure:
less pollution (less angry people),
less dependence from import of fuels (trade need for coal gets satisfied)
Due to limits in resources, conventional energy should get more expensive within time, while costs of renewables should get cheaper due to technology advances.

[This message has been edited by krauter (edited April 12, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

With the proper commodity and energy models, coal will become harder to find, and consequently more expensive, without us tinkering with it.

Whether or not people turn to renewable energy sources, or nuclear, is a matter for game-play though. Hopefully we'll have to make a meaningful choice between nuclear and a more natural alternative. And with small quantities of uranium around (as in Raingoon's energy model) some civs will be forced to use renewable energy if they don't have an abundance of natural resources, or are not wealthy enough to afford it).

- MKL

[Hendrik the Great]

My first post in the Civ III section...

To be honest I did't read through the list of ideas but I also can't recall anybody mentioning it.
But I sure do like the idea! How do think it could work? Take forests as places for Biomas and making sure they stay there?
That would open up totally new ways of waging war btw! Imagine burning down the energy reserves of an enemy nation that has concentrated on Biomas for their energy supply! Or when using Hydropower; cutting the water supply by diverting rivers...

It would also open totally new ways in the fields of economy I guess. Coal might become close to useless...

Please write more about this! How do you want it to work like?


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Mathias' Civ II Page http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited April 12, 2000).]

[Earthling7]

Excellent!

Integrade this with expandable cities without making the system too tedious and you have a winner

------------------
Greetings,
Earthling7
ICQ: 929768

[krauter]

Here are my suggestions for renewable and conventional energy sources in CIV3.

Coal mining: costs for maintenance are increasing by time (longer and deeper mines) from to 2 to 4 shields. After a 100 years of operation resource of coal mine is finished.
Use of energy generated by coal is generating 100 % pollution (25 % after the invention of air filters). Pollution is causing some amount of unhappiness. Earthquake kills some units of population (miners)
Building costs are 100 shields. Production is 25 per year. Lifetime of coalmine is 100 years. Lifetime of coal power plant 25 years. Recover from recycling: 7.

Hydropower:
Only possible near rivers and lakes: mountains 200 % energy production, but cost also 100 % more to built. Hills: 100% energy production, flat land: 50 % energy production, big rivers are doubling energy production. Due to climatic changes production of hydro power can vary (e.g. more rainfall: small rivers get to big rivers and double energy production, in dry periods big rivers get to small rivers, under extreme conditions desertification can make power production impossible, earthquakes can cause flooding within the surrounding, lower squares (1-2 squares for hydro power plants built in hilly regions, 2-4 squares for power plants build in mountain regions). Maintenance costs are 1 shield.
Building costs are 200 shields. Production is 25. Lifetime is 40 years. Recover from recycling: 25.

Wind:
Works best in coastal areas: 200% energy generation, deserts are generally calm (50%). Sole hills and single mountains give 200% power production. Valleys are bad (30 %). Regions a bit away from the poles produce 150% of power (“roaring forties”). Hills, wood, other wind turbines and close obstacles (next square) reduce power (70 %). Maintenance is 2, in stormy areas (e.g. mountains 3). Building costs are 50 shields, generation is 10. Earthquakes could lead to total destruction in 50% of the cases. Floods do not interfere. Wind generators bulked directly near town squares may cause some unhappiness (noise).
Lifetime is 15-20 years. Recover from recycling 7 shields.

SOLAR ENERGY: General:
Irradiated solar energy onto Earth is gradually increasing from 700 kWh/sqm per year in Polar Regions to 2200 kWh/sqm per year in regions close to the equator – this results in a triple energy production!

Solar thermal power plants:
Work best in sunny and warm places (deserts): Energy production is 70% from standard near the poles; near equator is 200%. Desert gives an additional increase of 20%. Humid areas produce 20% less.
Construction of plants in woods and valleys decreases power by 25 % due to shadowing. Building costs are 200 shields. Power generation is 25. Maintenance costs are 2 shields. Earthquake and flooding decrease power production by 50%. Lifetime is 25 years. Recover from recycling: 100.

Photovoltaics:
Energy production in Polar Regions is 70 % from standard; near equator is 200%. Deserts give a 10% minus (heat is decreasing the voltage of solar cells). Hills give a 10% plus (cooler, increases voltage). Mountains give a 20% in power production. Costs to build in mountain areas are double.
Construction of plants in woods and valleys decreases power by 25 % due to shadowing.
Maintenance costs are 1 shield. Building costs are 320 shields, after the invention of Thin Film Semiconductor Technology: 180 shields. Power generation is 25. Earthquakes and flooding do not harm (solar cells even work in space).
Lifetime is 30 years. Recover from recycling: 200, for Thin Film Technology: 100.

Nuclear:
Power generation is 25, works for 35 years, costs 180, maintenance is 3. Nuclear power causes unhappiness and may cause scandals, especially when a university town is close by. Possibility of accident. Vulnerable to military attack and earthquakes (radiation kills in 4 squares around). Nuclear waste has to be watched by a military unit for 12000 time units. One square is sufficient for 10 years of nuclear waste. The reactor itself has to be treated as a nuclear waste square after the end of its lifetime. Recover from recycling: -40 (reactor has to be sealed).

I tried to model it as realistic as possible, but in order keep it playable, we also could use infinite lifetime
for the power plants.

[Hendrik the Great]

What you have writen here sounds very intriging.
Let's just put in the game as it is!

What about Biomas or Fuel Cell technology or Geothermal Energy?
Ideas...?

[krauter]

Nice idea!
Suggestion for a geothermal power plant:
Power generation 8-20 (depending on location), building costs 80, maintenance 1-2,
Slow decrease of power generation due to limit of heat transfer and local cooling of the sediments (-1 every 5 years). While most often geothermal potential is close to earthquake regions, I suggest an increased risk of earthquakes(+300%)there.

[krauter]

Biomass:

Energy form biomass can be generated from three sources:

1. Agriculture:
1.1 A part of agriculture waste can be transformed into energy: having a biogas plant in a city is giving one energy unit for each two farming products.
1.2 Also farming could be directly used to produce energy: Instead of food, energy in the harvest: e.g. sugarcane can be distilled to alcohol which serves as fuel for cars (1990 60% of the cars in Brazil had been running on that) while also the waste could be used, I suggest an efficiency of 150% compared to food production.

2. Waste
Waste and pollution production in a city with a biomass plant is sinking by 50%,
25% of the original produced waste and pollution can be transformed into energy.


3. Woods
Waste directly form the woods (dead trees) and indirectly in the city (e.g. from carpenters etc. ) can be transformed into energy. For each two shields produced in a wood, one energy unit is generated.

I suggest a cost to erect a biomass plant of about 60 shields, a maintenance cost of 2, and an energy production as shown above.

[krauter]

I am not familiar how do we get these suggestions to someone from FIREAXIS – Who can help?

[tniem]

krauter, first of all it's Firaxis not Fireaxis. Then you can go to http://www.firaxis.com and send them an email about your ideas but I think they are flooded with emails and probably won't read it.

The best way is to continue posting here refering to your ideas and hoping it is included in the next essential Civ list. That way it is sent to Firaxis as something that most Civ players would want to see in the game and it is guaranteed to be received.

[raingoon]

The Energy Model was voted on and sent to Firaxis in the last Essential Civ 3 List. You can check out the energy model that I proposed in the Essential Civ 3 List over in The List/Ideas for Firaxis forum. See if the ideas there are compatible with what you're thinking -- the energy model already sent by no means represents the end of the discussion...

[krauter]

I could find only the old energy model in a site by korn (attached below): It could could get some essential update by the ideas mentioned above (also the unit Barrel, which represents energy only for a period of approx. 200 years, could be substituted by Energy Unit).
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000343.html#8

[Hendrik the Great]

Here I am again. Happy Easter to everybody!

Some thoughts...
I generally agree with what has been posted above. Even though I like to get into as many details as possible we have to remember not to too much of the good things. Some who is not familiar with the workings of the various energy systems should still be able to enjoy the game. But we haven't reached that point yet. So go on!

Now, some suggestions I just came up with:

-I know there is some kind of power plant in Spain that is using solar power more indirectly. There is a large area of ground which is covered by a transparent plastics (foil?) thingy. In the centre there is a very high tower with several turbines in it that are above each other.
As I understand it works because the air under the plastic is heated and moves along the bottom of the plastic which is about 1 meter above the ground towards the tower. The air is then going up the tower and turns the turbines.
How do we catagories this? Solar Thermal, Solar Collector or what? Would it be worth including?

-How about Photovoltaic Power Plants in Earth Orbit? I guess the initial investment would be huge but I think the outcome can be quite large as well. The would of course have to be ground stations to recieve the energy via microwaves that are transmitted from the orbital plant to the ground. But those could be more or less anywhere on the surface of the planet. They would not be interrupted by rain, clouds, smok or anything in the air because the microwaves can penetrate through them. Of course, being close to the equator would be a benefit I prosume because of the angle the beams come down and the distance from orbit to ground if the power plants are in a geostationary orbit which I believe would most favourable.

-I believe the idea of tidel power plants in coastal areas is already included, is it?
If not it definetly should be!

Well, that's it for now.

[krauter]

On order to make it easier to discuss on the implemantations of Renewables, I pasted the Convenional Energy Model I found in the "Suggestions for FIRAXIS" (release canidiate?)and commented it, indicated by ***

citation:
"An energy resource model could and should be implemented in Civ 3, as distinct from the current production resource model in Civ 2. Where production resources would remain as SHIELDS, energy resources could be depicted as BARRELS".
***Energy units !***

"Energy could be derived from animal power, wood, water, wind, coal, oil, uranium, and solar", ***geothermal sites, waste, agriculture (biomass)*** "depending on your current level of technology. The map would seed certain Special Energy Resources"
*** and - more whitspred general energy resources (rivers, windy coasts, sunny mountains etc ***
"according to their energy yield potential. E.g., the more profitable the resource is to exploit, the less frequently it would appear on the map. Perhaps Uranium, which might yield the most barrels per site of all, would be the hardest to find.

The use of Energy in the game would be in combination with production shields to create units. Some units, like battleships, could not be built without HUGE volumes of energy barrels, the kind of volume a lower-yield resource like coal couldn't begin to provide. The balance of the game should dictate that building a unit like a battleship, and supporting its movement (see below), would require that the player locate, secure and exploit a resource with no lower yield ratio than oil. It is suggested the production model be changed such that one energy barrel would now be needed per shield to build. This could be modified by certain improvements and wonders. Any ratios suggested here are of course subject to practical testing.

Various areas of the game that would be effected:

Trade and Trade Routes - first, trading energy or buying and selling it outright will help players who missed the exploration and resource grab; secondly, even those who succeed in controling resources should have to initiate trade routes (made instantly with a small fee) from their oil producing colony to their production heartland. It should therefore be possible to make a blockade against an enemy. This would finally give players a reason to have a navy - to protect their own energy trade routes while disrupting their enemy's.

Diplomacy - includes negotiating trades of energy barrels, resource rich land, the outright buying and selling of energy barrels as mentioned above.

Transportation - The game would require each road tile and highway tile to consume energy barrels, thereby adding a strategic cost to unchecked city expansion; rail tiles should be free to maintain, but movement on them would now cost a certain amount of energy (see "Unit Movement" below).

Exploration - a new game feature: locating resource deposits.

Technology Tree - discovery is needed before the player is able to locate/use a resource.

ICS - it will cost more to have more infrastructure, thereby helping to restrict unbridled expansion.

Unit Movement - a new movement model whereby modern units consume energy barrels to move; on undeveloped terrain moving one space would require one barrel of energy, so a tank moving three spaces across a field would require 3 energy barrels. This cost would be modified by, going highest cost to lowest, road, highway and rail -- for instance, a tank moving 11 spaces on a highway might require 3 energy barrels, where a railroads would require either much less or a fixed amount of barrels as a "fee", while a stealth fighter flying 11 spaces through the air would require 11 energy barrels.

Land Control - necessitates the need to explore, control and defend resources.

Game Interface - energy "barrels," ***E-units***or another icon, would now be tracked alongside production shields.

Map Tiles - new tiles for Special Resources"
***and whitepread renewable energy ressources***


"Early Energy Sources

oxen ranch (grass and plains, animal power, greatest energy production)
***biomass production***

lumber jack (forests, uses wood, high energy barrel production)
***depending on location - see my suggetions for biomass ****

mills (river tiles, uses water, medium energy barrel production)
***depending on location ! - see my suggetions ****

wind mill (hills, uses wind, medium energy barrel production)
*** depending on location !***

Later Energy Sources

open pit uranium mine (uranium squares, greatest energy barrel production)"
*** other longterm problems, nuclear waste etc. - see my suggestions above ***

"oil well (oil squares, high energy barrel production)
***equaivalent properties to coal - limited resource - see suggestions above ***

coal mine (coal squares, medium energy barrel production)"
***- limited resource - see my suggestions above***

"dam (river tiles, medium ***to high** energy barrel production)"
******depending on location ! clean - see my suggetions ****

solar panels (desert tiles, low *** ,meduim to high*** energy barrel production)"

*** please diverse between Solar Thermal and Photovoltaics - depending on location see my suggetions ****

wind power plants (hills, low ***to high*** energy barrel production)
***depending on location ! - see my suggetions ****

Pollution - energy barrels should be the sole determinant of pollution; energy barrels might produce pollution on a one-to-one per barrel basis, but increased technology would lower this amount.
*** renewables cause less pollution!!***

Overall Impact

Energy barrels would now be needed for production - i.e., you can't process shields without using energy barrels. Thus, no matter how many shields per turn your city collects, if it doesn't have energy barrels it cannot apply those shields to production. Before factories it would take one energy barrel to use one shield. As factories are built the amount of shields utilized per energy barrel would go up.

***Technology advanvement: Energy saving production: By introduction of ISO 14000 and Life Cyle Analysis (LCA) products could be produced with less energy consumption while a part of the energy (20-70%) could be regained by recyling ***

It is suggested that at some point a new advancement would make it possible for shields to be turned into energy barrels - such as synthetic fuels produced by germany at the end of WWII. Perhaps it would take two shields to make one energy barrel.

A suggested New Wonder - "OPEC," would increase oil production by 1.5 times per square and leech 1/4 of energy barrels produced from oil squares belonging to other civs.

Where shields might well continue to be locally gathered by each city, energy barrels could be collected from developed resource tiles in colonies within or outside your civ's borders, sent via an unobstructed supply route (abstracted on the game map) to your civ, where the cost of national infrastructure is taken off the top and the remainder is disbursed to each city to be processed with shields for production.

Excess barrels would go into individual city reserves, located in each city, the capacity for which would be equal to 10 times that city's population (before modifiers, which might take it up to 15 energy barrels per citizen). Reserves would be used to fund movement of units from that city (if applicable), and then to make up for any shortfalls in future production.

Balance

High production resource sites should be rare, and it should take a great deal of energy barrels to support a large civ's needs. If one civ gets extraodinarily lucky and manages to gain a site that produces copious amounts of energy barrels (i.e., several uranium sites together), limiting the storage capacity in each city would check them from being able to build an insurmountable stockpile.

The race to control resources would add a fun new layer of strategy and excitement, and the balancing act of USING those resources is nothing less than fundamental to a world class 4X strategy game.

*** while resources are limited, energy is getting more rare and expensive in the future, so storing could be also an option
instead of using it up ***


[This message has been edited by krauter (edited April 23, 2000).]

[krauter]

Also happy easter !

To the questions from Hendrik:

The solar power plant you mentioned was built
near Manzabares in Southern Spain. It was working by thermal convection triggered by the hot air under the transparent foils. It got a diameter of 122 m and got a chimney of 195 m (at its end was the turbine and the generator).
Unfortunately it broke after an extraordinary storm in 1988 (climate change?) and was dismantled later. It was also a solar thermal power plant.

Space Photovoltaic Power Generation: it costs a lot of money to put things in space and the maximum solar irradiance is only 35% higher than on the Earth's surface. o.k. - nighttime could be avoided. But I don't think it is worth the effort - you have to consider the losses of the conversion to microwave and the re-conversion. Also control has to be save not to grill some cities etc. These ideas came up in the 70s and 80s when NASA needed some money for future projects and self-justification.

Tidal hydro power plants could be considered in the game, although I know only two of them on the planet working (the biggest in in Normandy, France with 240 MW at a tide hub of 17 m), it seems they are uneconomic.


... if you got some ideas for simplification
of my ideas - let me know.
[This message has been edited by krauter (edited April 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by krauter (edited April 24, 2000).]