Free option: Parallell tech-tree advancements?

[Ralf]

I discovered this from a Happy Puppy CTP-2 review

Something for Civ-3 as well perhaps? Any comments?

"As far as the scientific improvements go, one problem that I've had with the Civilization series as a whole, and with most empire-building games in general, is the way scientific improvement is handled, which is one advancement at a time. For a game that prides itself on having such an advanced empire-building model, you'd think someone would realize that tanks, planes, radar, automobiles, and a whole mess of other things all were developed concurrently. It would have been nice to have the option to research multiple technologies, so you could have the choice of concentrating all of your research on one goal (thus achieving it faster), or spreading the wealth a bit to get more upgrades at once."

[airdrik]

Sounds like a good idea. You can allocate science beakers among the different techs. All beakers have to be used up (because other wise they would just go to waste), and you can research as many, or as few techs as you want.

[tniem]

I still would like some type of research where the type of Civ you are plays a part in how fast research goes and in which direction in heads.

If you constantly fight wars, you will be able to build legions before your neighbors because you will use your technology to fight. While, an expansionist near the ocean will get ships faster and have colonies overseas.

But something other than the simple, I am going to research this technology in x amount of turns is in order.

[- Groucho -]

I like the multiple research idea. There ought to be multiple science queues you can allocate beakers to. Maybe the number of queues could be dictated by the number of research centres you possess. And to get a civ specific flavour to them, only certain techs would be researchable in certain centres. For example:

Cities = one general purpose research queue
Military Labs = one military tech only research queue
Universities = one general purpose research queue
Civilian Hospitals = one health? related research queue
...

If that produces too many queues to make the specificity meaningful (who cares if you have 5 hospitals and 15 mil labs when practically speaking you only have enough beakers to get 4 labs going at a reasonable pace), perhaps you would need multiple centres to get a single queue (before that they just help produce beakers).

I also like the idea of multiple build queues within a city (why put all your city production into one basket? It would be very useful to have a couple of workers beetling away on defenses while everybody else is cranking out tanks.)

[zyxpsilon]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 01-09-2001 06:16 PM Any comments? "It would have been nice to have the option to research multiple technologies, so you could have the choice of concentrating all of your research on one goal (thus achieving it faster), or spreading the wealth a bit to get more upgrades at once."

Linear towards an important step to the discovery OR wasting precious time in spread-outs aim at many different areas.

Looking at history;
How many nations were engaged in the race to manufacture the "FIRST" trans-atlantic sail boat while at the same time gathering evidence of Jupiter's moons?

Reality is that discoveries happen to emerge through competition, not hiding it from the rest of a planet.
If the America-Russia race to the moon hadn't occured then WE wouldn't have communication satellites today.

Research has to be focused on a single comprehensive goal, if need be, but also must lend itself free towards any "emergency" alternatives BY choice.

Multiple tech's at once... first at it, wins the edge!

[airdrik]

This is one of those things that, if it's in there, you don't have to worry about if you don't want to. You could just allways allocate all your beakers to one tech at a time and not worry about other techs.

They could even have a switch button by every tech available which says 'allocate all research here' which you can click and all research will go towards that goal. They could also have another button which says 'even out research among all goals' which would divide your research between all techs available.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

TOTALLY opposed to this.

This is one clear-cut case where "realism" takes a back seat to "fun".

There was nothing more addictive and "fun" in the first Civilization games than making that tough decision on what technology to pursue next. That was where the fun was: you had to CHOOSE carefully between a variety of interesting options.

That's what kept strategists thinking and planning and eagerly awaiting that next turn on into the wee hours of the night.

The interesting choices you make are part of what makes a game like this addictive. But the choices are straightforward, often, and distinct enough to be intriguing for planners. Make it so their's too much planning and strategy involved all at one time (i.e. you can choose a bunch of technologies at once...*ugh*) and you lose alot of the simplicity, the beauty, and the basic enjoyment of the game.

I promise you, what keeps people "hooked" on strategic computer games is simple, interesting choices with direct consequences.

This is perhaps the dullest idea since the "managing your supply lines" one. It does nothing to improve the overall enjoyment of the game.


[This message has been edited by Frugal_Gourmet (edited January 10, 2001).]

[airdrik]

As I said in my last post: This is one of those things that you can ignore if you don't want to worry about. You can still follow a linear path if you feel like it.

But, this raises an interesting question: Will it be strategically better to research multiple techs at once? After all if you have your research spread out between 10 different techs then you won't gain any techs for 10 times as long, after which you gain 10 techs and wait 10 times as long for the next 10. As opposed to one at a time, by the time the other guy gets his next ten you have already had the first nine, and got the tenth at the same time as he got all ten, so you are really ahead because you've had all those other techs for longer than him.

But, you can estimate if you will have extra research left over from the one that you are researching, and you can allocate it to other techs so that no research is wasted because you only needed 1 beaker to gain that tech and you get 50 beakers per turn.

[Frugal_Gourmet]

Which makes me think: why even bother?

Better just not to have the strategy available in the first place.

Such a change would entail a more complex model of the way knowledge and technology are handled by the game. But that addition of complexity would add no fun or intrigue. In fact, it might take away fun because instead of making a simple, interesting choice between a few options with direct conesquences you are faced with a more complex, confusing choice wherein the consequences aren't that immediately apparent at all.

Over-complexity can turn Civ into more of a "chore" than a game.

Think of chess. How simple is chess to learn? Extremely. How realistically does chess model actual mililtary strategy? It's based on that notion, but really only scratches the surface.

But how beautiful is chess? How addictive? How intriguing are the choices you make? Would you ever wish to add MORE complexity to the game of chess? If so, what could you possibly add?

[airdrik]

How about just automatically sticking the extra beakers in the next tech you choose, then no beakers are wasted. And scrap this idea if no one else will speak for why it might be more fun/strategically better to include this idea in civ 3

[Frugal_Gourmet]

Well, if I went a little overboard in my zealous defense of simplicity I apologize. Choosing a single technology to focus on is one of the basic things I really liked about Civ.

I'm sure if there's a good way to "tweak" the system and allow it to still be fun I'm all for it.

[airdrik]

I don't think it needs that much tweeking, and it won't complicate the tech tree that much if at all.

The way it would work is you have a screen that you can pull up which has all the techs available for research. Each one has by it a feild to enter the number of beakers you would like to allocate to that tech, and two buttons, one for 'allocate all beakers here' and one for 'remove all beakers', they would also have the number of beakers already 'used' by that tech and the total to reach that tech. It would also have on it the total beakers and the number of extra beakers, and a button for 'even out research' to divide all beakers among all techs.

[Jerk]

I like the multiple tech research idea although I am not sure how often I would use it. In the civ world I always seem to be focused on that ONE tech I really want so I can build the unit/wonder/building that I need. There are times that I am not in dire need of one particular tech versus another and in those times it would be neat to be able to spread it across a few techs I want.

Happy Puppy's review is a bad one to base this on though. Historically technological advances have come in big bunches with huge holes in between. This would make gameplay rather boring. It also fails to keep in mind that one tech doesnt mean one new thing. Most techs have a few things they do. You aren't researching a specific building, you are researching a general thing that leads to that building and perhaps a new unit or wonder. That's why its good to keep the advancement titles general.
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited January 10, 2001).]

[Adm.Naismith]

BTW, why don't you look at the Tech tree part of CIV 3 suggestions?

It hosts lot of ideas, about parallel tech research, too.

Me too often forget to check it, so I "discover" again the same solution so many smart apolytoner suggested months or years ago

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Frugal_Gourmet on 01-10-2001 01:41 PM TOTALLY opposed to this.

I have one objection that i didnt really think of, before i posted this quote. I shall probably never use this option, even if they decides to implement it, because...

Alternative A:

If I choose to allocate 33% lightbulbes equally to 3 different techs (adding up to roughly 100%), it means 3 times as long waiting time before I get access to any of these 3 chosen techs.

Alternative B:

If I instead choose to allocate 100% to tech 1, it means i get access to that specific tech, after only 1/3 of above waiting-time. If I then continue to allocate 100% to tech 2, it means that i get access to that specific tech after only 2/3 of above waiting-time.

This means that if i was dumb enough to choose alternative A, i wouldnt have any access to tech 1 for 2/3 of my waiting time, compared with alternative B. Similarly, i wouldnt have access to tech 2 for 1/3 of the waiting-time, compared with alternative B. Why would I ever want to choose alternative A?