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  • The Creation of Differences between Civs.

    Civ2 was a fabulous game, but one thing struck me: all the civs were the same! There was usually nothing to distinguish civs excepts on their technology level. This was strange, especially after reading about Britain's mastery of the seas in the 1900s, and at the same time, the Prussian's great armies.

    So, I though, how can we make differences, without throwing the whole system out of wack. I thought that civ specific techs were wrong. Because why would the Brits need great seamanship if they were a landlocked civ? It wouldn't make much sence, would it?

    So, I began to think of ways to make civs different, where the player would have the choice on what path to follow. What did I come up with? "Traits".

    Now what are traits? Well, first of all, we must divide the tech tree into 4 (or 5) eras, like the Wonders of the World were in Civ2. Then insert these "traits" into the tree. "Traits" are a dead end on the Civ tree, but they are specializations. For example, a trait during modern times might be -Advanced Armor-, which would increase movement and power of armored units. Now, the main part of this arguement, is that Civs can ONLY CHOOSE ONE TRAIT PER ERA! So they must make a choice between that -Advanced Seamanship- or -Advanced Infantry- depending on what the player sees as the better choice for his civ, based on where he is and where he wants to go.

    This idea of "traits", dead end specializations that a civ can only chose one of per era, would add this differentiation between civs. You could have your great naval powers and great army powers by specialized picks. While an island nations choses -Advanced Seamanship-, a landlocked nation can pick -Advanced Infantry-.

    However, it isn't just relegated to military. Traits can also be under political or cultural. You could have -Improved Fascism- or -True Socialism-, which could improve the benefits of a particular government. Or You could pick -Greater Playwrights- to improve happiness inside your empire. But remember only ONE Trait per era. You'd have to pick between military or political or cultural traits, and of course you could only get traits when you get the neccessary techs that the prereqs for the traits. This adds another element. A civ could pick a trait early in the era to get a boost through the era, or wait until the end of the era to get a more powerful trait, but be rendered weaker in the era as the result.

    This addition of "Traits" adds more strategy and creates interesting differentiations. You could have civs that spend all 4 traits (one per each era) on naval upgrades, while others spread their traits in different area (like creating the Perfect Fascism, while having the best Infantry).

    I'm open to suggestions on how to improve this concept, but I believe that this is, at its base, a good concept.
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

  • #2
    This could be a good idea for special units for each civ say in the ancient era:

    Japanese: Feudalism would grant them an extra unit a la Age of Empires (Samauri)

    Chinese: [Scrolls] Scrolls would allow a boost in a temple if you have a library in the same city; Confucious's writings

    Persians: [War Boats] They would have the War Schooner, with stats like the trime, 1-1-2 except it would be able to go away from land and carry troops.

    If you want more ideas ask me.
    -->Visit CGN!
    -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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    • #3
      NO NO NO NO!!!

      No CIV specific traits! That is what I'm against! ANY civ can pick ANY trait! It is up to the player (Human or computer) to pick which trait is best for them at that point!

      edit: sorry for being such an a**hole, but I really don't like Civ specific traits.
      [This message has been edited by Imran Siddiqui (edited August 19, 2000).]
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • #4
        quote:

        I thought that civ specific techs were wrong. Because why would the Brits need great seamanship if they were a landlocked civ? It wouldn't make much sense, would it?

        I think, this is just the point about it. I wouldn't make "unique" units like "feather warriors" for aztecs or Elephants for Phoenicians etc.
        I've also thought a bit about "alternate tech-trees", but I have to admit that Icouldn't think of any senseful. Maybe you could specify more precisely what "Traits" you have in mind, it would be easier to discuss them.
        They'd have to be really balanced if you want to implement them.
        I always thought it was stupid that every civ builds cathedrals and wants to build "Michelangelo's chapel", but whenever I made thoughts about different effects of religions I noticed the game would become unbalanced. The same thing happened not only in religion but other aspects as well (either discover Samurai OR knights etc.)

        Or just take the AI: Even if it gets much better, the AI wouldn't be smart enough to choose effectively between different "Traits".

        Yes, that's about the fears I have on this.
        If you can take them from me, I surely support your idea.



        ------------------
        GAK-Sturm Graz 2:0 (0:0)
        just the result of the recent football-derby in Graz.
        We are the GAK, Grazer Athletik Klub, Austria's football club No.1

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        • #5
          Good inquiries. Well, I was thinking of early traits such as "Advanced Horsemanship" (can be discovered after Horsemanship), "Advanced Defense" (after Pikemans), "Enlightended Monarchy" (after Monarchy), "Improved Republic" (after Republic), "Greater Playwrites" (after Theater tech), etc. You'd have to pick one.

          I admit I haven't thought it out that much, but I'm sure that traits could be decided at a later date. And I'm sure they could balanced within reason. They are like mini-wonders, but you have to make a choice on which ones you want.

          As for computer AI picking one of these... I figure if they could make the AI pick among social engineering, they could make them pick this. Though that might as well be a problem that I haven't considered.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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          • #6
            I like the sound of this, but with one small modification. You can pick from non-terrain specific Traits such as "enlightened monarchy", "advanced defence". However at the start of the game you get a travel bonus depending on the type of terrain you start on. So if you start on a coastal square you automatically get "advanced seamanship" on a plains square you will get "advanced horsemanship". Of course you will still be able to build on these traits in later eras by picking "medievel seamanship" etc.

            I just think that all civs should have didfferences right from the start.


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            • #7
              I have a problem with the 1 trait/era point. Take Britain as an example- it had great playwrites, the most important physicists and naval dominance all, arguably, within the same era. I prefer the idea of civ- specific wonders, which the computer won't build if it doesn't need.
              "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

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              • #8
                Whoops! Sorry for not reading carefully enough.

                Okay, but consider those the traits you can pick:

                You could pick them no matter what civ but they would be 'meant' especially for one civ, say you get a research bonus if the trait is 'meant' for your civ.

                Japanese: Feudalism would grant them an extra unit a la Age of Empires (Samauri)

                Chinese: [Scrolls] Scrolls would allow a boost in a temple if you have a library in the same city; Confucious's writings

                Persians: [War Boats] They would have the War Schooner, with stats like the trime, 1-1-2 except it would be able to go away from land and carry troops.
                -->Visit CGN!
                -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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                • #9
                  Ugh... I hate civ specific wonders and will consider not buying Civ3 if they have them in there. CIV is not reliving history, it is recreating history!

                  As for Britain, they were kind of powerful, no? If you were able to be that strong, there'd be some balance problems, no? I think 1 trait per era is sufficent.

                  Biddles, good idea, but I wonder if it can be implimented (with the AI and all).

                  Again, NOTHING CIV-SPECIFIC!
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                  • #10
                    I was not saying civ-specific I was saying that if it was REALLY that particular civ's advance in real life then they would be able to research it quicker.
                    -->Visit CGN!
                    -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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                    • #11
                      Imran Siddiqui has a great suggestion that there be differences to civilizations. I also agree with him that these should be developed in the course of play and not imposed on civilizations at the beginning, or even made easier for one civilization than others. I like the sense of almost-infinite possibilities that you get at the beginning of the game, and I am partial to the idea that all human beings are equally capable of anything given the right historical circumstances.

                      Another thing I like about Civ is the way that it makes you plan ahead, and the way that earlier decisions affect later ones (or is that two things?). IMHO, it would be interesting if the differences between civilizations were somehow the cumulative consequences of a lot of earlier decisions. For example, if the proportion of trade arrows that you devote to taxes is higher than average (the average of all the other civs perhaps), then eventually you will have more efficient tax collection. Or if you spend more than the average number of shields on ships, or on cavalry, or on libraries, then these start to get cheaper or more effective for you. There could be cross-effects too, like if you keep building ships then eventually it gets easier to research naval technology.

                      By the same token, if you are spending much less than the average on land units, then your land units will become less effective, or if you are devoting much less trade than average to science, then your people will be less efficient researchers. If you happen to be near the average in that particular category, nothing happens.

                      After all, the reason the English had great navies was ultimately because they had a long tradition of seafaring. Allowing civilizations to pick a trait every once in a while would still allow sudden changes (the Prussians suddenly decide to become a naval power and so pick advanced seafaring), which seems odd.

                      Also, there should be some possibility for civilizations to be weaker in some areas, not just stronger, and finally, it might be easier on the AI if it doesn't have to make an explicit choice about what to be good (or bad) at.

                      To satisfy those (including me!) who want to see specialized units, how about adding some dead-end technologies to the tree that would be mutually exclusive? Once you have knights, for example, you could research crusaders, and once you have archers you could research longbows, but if you have crusaders you couldn’t get longbows, and vice versa. Have each of them make the other one obsolete, for example, or better yet, prevent a civilization that has one from ever getting the other (through research or trade or conquest).

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                      • #12
                        King Richards Crusade. English Longbows.

                        You can have both.

                        A better idea is that advanced archery delays research into early gunpowder.
                        "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

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                        • #13
                          I'm not going to elaborate too far because I've said it one hundred times before, but I'm against civ specific units/wonders/whatever. Differences should be related to how you've played the game, not based on who you chose at the beginning of it.

                          Thankyouverymuch.

                          - MKL
                          - mkl

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                          • #14
                            Well said MidKnight!

                            I already saw great idea for specific Tech trees, mutually exclusive or dead end discovery.

                            I agree Civilizations must have some cultural difference (until the advent of Hollywood movies and McDonalds menu, at least ).

                            I agree that having that difference evolving from different style of play, is better than having them strictly related to a specific Civ, but if you prefer so it can be quite easy to have a "earth like" scenario that can link from start a Civ and its specialties.

                            Thumbs up to Rashid for underlining that often "special traits" must have some drawbacks and to Evil Capitalist suggesting (e.g.)
                            quote:


                            advanced archery delays research into early gunpowder





                            ------------------
                            Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
                            "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                            - Admiral Naismith

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                            • #15
                              Sounds good... and is acceptable in the terms of gameplay, too. Good idea!
                              Wiio's First Law: Communication usually fails, except by accident.

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