riflemen in three cornered hats

[lord of the mark]

I understand its only concept art, so lets clarify some things for the benefit of Firaxis.

Yes the rifle was invented in the 18thc, and that may well be where Firaxis got a historicical model for a rifleman. However due to the difficulty in in proper ammo, it was difficult developing a rifle that could be used as a standard infantry weapon. A rifleman was basically a sharpshooter specialist. Full units of riflemen did not come into play until the American Civil War, when the "minie ball" made the US made Springfield and the UK made Lee-Enfield into standard infantry weapons. Indeed in the early battles of the ACW, (EG 1st Manassas- 1861) infantry was armed with muskets. The first battle (IIRC) in which the rifle was decisive was Fredericksburg (1862), and the unfamiliarity with the impact of mass use of the rifle was largely responsible for the very bloody results of that battle.

Ergo a Civ3 rifleman unit should wear 19thc dress (as did the Civ2 and Civ:TOT riflemen) and not 18th c dress.

And yes some of us dont want to bother with modpacks, so it does matter.

[hHydro]

Oh. My. God.

It's cool that you know your history and all, but I'm sorry, but I can't possibly convey how unimportant this trivial detail is.

We're talking about a game where history-as-we-know-it can end up with fascist dictators controlling the world with Elephants and musketeers by 1100 AD, and where planes take 5 years to fly around the world, and you're worried about how many corners the guy's bloody hat has.

Heh. Do you write Hasbro and complain that the car token should be bigger than the thimble?

[lord of the mark]

Very well - than why use unit graphics at all, why not just use war game style counters? or why not just re-use the old civ 2 units - why bother with new ones for civ3?

No im not a stickler for historical details, i dont play with the fascism patch, i'd rather have the inaccuracy of loads of alpines than add a patch that will introduce elements the AI doesnt understand.

But accurate looking riflemen was something that Civ2 got right. What is to be gained by having Civ3 get it wrong?

and whyu should we use these forums to learn and teach history?

[red_jon]

I agree with lotm.

Some people want accuracy to enjoy the game more. It is a CIV game after all.

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark on 12-21-2000 04:42 PM But accurate looking riflemen was something that Civ2 got right. What is to be gained by having Civ3 get it wrong?

You absolutely right!

Then it comes to simple stuff like the looks of units, city-improvements, wonders, tile-improvements and techs, there no reason whatsoever why Civ-3 shouldnt be 100% accurat and realistic.

The urge for realism only becomes a problem when we are talking about incorporating ever more complex society-parameters in the game. Civ-3 is after all suppose to be a game - not a super-detailed and super-realistic world-simulator.

[Steve Clark]

You don't like the representation of the conceptual Riflemen? Fine...then either 1) design your own unit or 2) download a modpack. Why is this so hard to understand?? Do you have any idea how many different ways folks here have portrayed the warrior unit (for example) in Civ2? Why even bother to complain about these units when we will be able to design our own or to download what others have designed? Why am I asking so many pointed questions?

[red_jon]

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 12-21-2000 05:39 PM You don't like the representation of the conceptual Riflemen? Fine...then either 1) design your own unit or 2) download a modpack. Why is this so hard to understand?? Do you have any idea how many different ways folks here have portrayed the warrior unit (for example) in Civ2? Why even bother to complain about these units when we will be able to design our own or to download what others have designed? Why am I asking so many pointed questions?

I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY STUFF LIKE THIS.

Why should we have to bother? If we pay for the game, it is their job to make sure it is correct. Why should we have to do their work for them?

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

you guys!!! we only know that there will be a unit in civ-3 called a Rifleman. we dont know exactly what he will look like (look at my Email Post!), so we cant complain yet. besides, if the Riflemen do look like that, we dont know if that unit will be an 'elite' unit with musketeers, maybe they will have two different riflemen! dont complain about something your not sure of.

[Steve Clark]

quote: Why should we have to bother? If we pay for the game, it is their job to make sure it is correct. Why should we have to do their work for them?

Correct? Correct for what?

The most important part of Civ3 is customizability (according to the Apolyton poll and from many comments here). The ability to create and play with customized units (and to create scenarios) are critical for replay (witness the tens of thousands of downloads for the HiRes modpack alone, and the many user-designed scenarios). But more importantly, let's say you want to design or play a WWI scenario that has Riflemen units. Would you use a 18th- or 19th-century representation? Of course not, neither one would be right. That is the point.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 12-21-2000 05:55 PM Correct? Correct for what?

"If you desperately tries to please everybody, you may very well end up with pleasing nobody".

Having a dedicated PC-game fan-base can both be a blessing and a curse, i guess.

[The Kaiser]

I agree with LotM as regards getting it right first time, we shouldn't always need to MOD stuff the minutes it's released.

However this comes down to what Firaxis are aiming for. Are they after the period the unit first appeared, or when it was used to a great effect?

Diablo, I've seen your email off Firaxis and they stated that whilst the images aren't directly "in game graphics" they are the 3D models that will be used to create the "in game" graphics. So THIS IS what the Rifleman will look like, however the animation and posture could change.

[hHydro]

quote: Originally posted by The Kaiser on 12-21-2000 06:42 PM I agree with LotM as regards getting it right first time, we shouldn't always need to MOD stuff the minutes it's released.

Getting it right? IT's a freakin HAT!

Heh.. Man, I'm sorry I went for lunch. This thread exploded while I was gone.

No-one's advocating having giant Volkswagons with guns, or planes with 2 pairs of wings... but the point is, CIV 3 is not HISTORY. IT's a GAME. Firaxis has better things to do than redo all their art because you guys have an aversion to 3-pointed hats. \

I'm not saying to deal with it and wait for a mod pack - I'm just finding it hard to believe that L.O.T.M. is worried about details on a graphic that will probably be too small to see in-game anyways. And you know what Lord? I don't have a problem with reusing Civ 2 graphics or army markers. Heck. Use the pieces from Monopoly for all I care. Games like this aren't good because the pieces look pretty. It's nice, but very low on my list of priorities.

Having said that, I think we all know this game WILL look beautiful. Firaxis won't release an ugly game. So why gripe about the graphics before you've even seen them?

(PS: In my first post, I wasn't referring to playing with a 'fascism patch'.. I've never played with such a thing. I was merely trying to point out that this game isn't about recreating history. It's about building a civilization to stand the test of time. )

[The Kaiser]

Why is it when we have discussions like this we always get the "I can't believe your talking about this" Brigade march into town?

If you think Civilisation is "just a game" why are you on these Forums?

IT IS IMPORTANT what the Rifleman looks like, because how it is graphically portrayed gives us clues as to where it appears in the Timeline/TechTree for example. Is it earlier or later than in Civ2? Would another unit be needed to fill the gap?

Yes we are picking from scraps of info at the moment, but this is more than a discussion about members fashion tastes!
[This message has been edited by The Kaiser (edited December 21, 2000).]

[hHydro]

quote: Originally posted by The Kaiser on 12-21-2000 08:20 PM IT IS IMPORTANT what the Rifleman looks like, because how it is graphically portrayed gives us clues as to where it appears in the Timeline/TechTree for example. [This message has been edited by The Kaiser (edited December 21, 2000).]

Hehe.. Sorry Kaiser.. couldn't resist.

"Ha.. the fool is coming at me with just three riflemen.. it's hopeless! He'll be.. uh wait.. those riflemen have THREE CORNERED HATS! Muster the defenses! We're doomed!"

Alright so I'm giving you and L.O.T.M. a hard time, but you have to admit that nitpicking details this tiny is pretty trivial. True, they may be changes that you WANT, but can you imagine the look on the face of the Firaxis artist when you walk up to him and say "I don't like it. His hat's wrong/the tank has a gay little cross on it/the phalanx's shield looks like it's constipated..." You know what he/she'll be thinking.

But at the same time, I have 'fashion tastes' too. (AKA: an opinion). It is *my* opinion that some people focus on this game as an earth-simulator, and don't consider the applications for alternate history. The more I am forced to relive hitory as it occurred on earth, the less fun I am going to have.

In my history, maybe there was only one world war, fought with Gyros and Dirigibles. Maybe the last remaining Democracy on my continent shares a border with a newly risen communist regime. Maybe the polar caps melt and society is driven to the seas where it thrives under the leadership of Kevin Costner.

And maybe.. just maybe.. three corner hats remained in style for military uniforms throughout the 18th and 19th centuries...

[Steve Clark]

Kaiser, with all due respect, that is not right at all. The Riflemen unit will have attributes similar to these:
Riflemen, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,4d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 1, Csc, 000000000000000
plus whatever new Civ3 attributes they come up with. It will be available with the advance of something like Conscription. So how does that relate to anything historical? I may discover the appropriate advance in 800ad, so should I expect the Riflemen unit to be in chainmail?? But let's say, for arguments sake, you want the Riflemen to be close to historically accurate. What do you chose? An 18th-century Grenadier? An early 19th-century frontiersmen? A Union soldier? A Confederate soldier? A Mexican War soldier? How about a riflemen from the Old West (my favorite)? Any one of these would be CORRECT, right?

Let's not focus on what the units look like anymore, it's stupid. Let Firaxis do its job of designing and developing the only good sequel to Civ2 and not spending the time to throw crumbs to urchins.