How cultural flipping should have been implemented

[TacticalGrace]

I already posted this in the thread "how to avoid cultural flipping when taking over cities" but I thought it should really be discussed in its own thread.

Many people (in particular Coracle who seems to have made an entire career out of it) have observed that cultural flipping is badly implemented, in particular because of the way entire armies simply dissappear.

Here are my thoughts on how CF should have been implemented (perhaps they could be in civ4):
(1) smuggling of produce/funds to other nation (some lost corruption&waste turns up in an enemy city as useful shields and gold)

(2) Some of the population flips: An enemy settler is created next to the city (on their go so it can move immediately). Obviously this can be stopped by stationing troops around the city (berlin wall).

(3) defecting units. one or two units dissappear and turn up across the border as traitor units. These convert-class units could be marked as such and might have a chance of flipping back. If the converts are the only units in the city then the city culturally flips. veterans have a low chance of conversion. Elites have almost no change of flipping. Elite* units never flip.

(4) sabotage by enemy patriots causes damage to units (perhaps one or two points of damage). This could result in the destruction of a unit. If there are no units left then the city CFs.

[Stuie]

I don't like 1, 2 or 3.

Number 4, on the other hand, would make more sense than the current system. That way you could keep pouring in troops to hold the city. Damage to units would need to be based on the number of foreign citizens - chance of one or two hits per citizen perhaps? Or some such. That would definitely make the flipping process more apparent and managable.

[TacticalGrace]

(1) explains where all the waste/corruption goes
(2) simulates refugees/immegration
(3) is similar to civ2 style unit conversion. Capturing a capital should also have a chance of yield convert-class units (think the Battle of France: vichy French forces fought against the allies. The Royal Navy sunk french ships in the Med in order to stop them falling into Germany's hands)

[Gen.Dragolen]

TG,

Now how do we bent Firaxis' ear to impliment your excellent ideas, without having to mod a Civ4 ?

D.

[WarpStorm]

They read pretty much all the threads here (unless you've gotten on their 'Ignore Poster' list (like Coracle)).

I don't like 1 or 3. 4 could be workable. 2 is good in theory but it won't work in practice because I'd just kill the settlers (I don't mind wars). To make it work in practice you could have them automatically join another city nearby.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
To make it work in practice you could have them automatically join another city nearby.

I remember that being discussed at some point... have population slowly move to a nearby city of the Civ with the better culture, decreasing the population of the original city. That seems like a decent solution.

I'd kill the setter, too.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Stuie

I'd kill the setter, too.

Not if if appeared on top of any enemies camped out in the city radius. This would have to be the default.

Also the settler would be created at the beginning of enemies turn so it would get an opportunity to get a move in. This would further increase its chances of reaching safety. You can safely assume that the enemy border would be very close to the city (this IS cultural reversion we are playing) so they could do a border crossing. even if there aren't enemy troops stationed there you would have to do a trip into enemy terratory to catch them, potentially exposing you to enemy attack/bombardment.

[Tiberius]

I like the CF the way it is, but if I should change it, I'd do it this way:

Each city that is under the influence of a culturally stronger civ, will have its citizens slowly and automatically convert to the other civ's nationality.
The factors in such a change would be the same as now for the flipping itself, except for the foreign nationalities, of course. Overlapping tiles wouldn't be a factor in the flipping itself, but in the citizen "defection". The CF formula would ensure that only cities that have foreign nationalities could flip.

Having more and more foreign citizens would be a warning that a culture flip may occur, and you could do something about it (right now no warning). You could bring in more troops, build some culture buildings, raise the luxury slider and so on.

I think this would be a good model for the "population migration" type of CF (for revolt-like CF there is of course the sudden flipping, which is an armed rebellion of the rezistors, after all)

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Not if if appeared on top of any enemies camped out in the city radius. This would have to be the default.

You let enemies camp outside your cities? Why?

[player1]

I think that slight modification of exsisting system could be OK.

Then city is about to flip, you lose SEVERAL units, but not all of them. Of course, if you have just one or two units, city flips, in other cases it does not.

[Worthingtons]

'in particular Coracle who seems to have made an entire career out of it'




I do agree the system should be changed, radical alterations are perhaps not the way. Perhaps warning the city may overthrow, leaving you the option of increasing military presence and fighting it, or Cutting your losses and deserting. Also there should be an in-between when it comes to 'flipping' , ie , an uprising damaging troops and buildings, but not entirely losing the city to the AI, or the city becoming independant and being left for someone to 'liberate'.

Hell, i've just suggested even more compications

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Rothy
Perhaps warning the city may overthrow, leaving you the option of increasing military presence and fighting it, or Cutting your losses and deserting.

I like this as it would remove a lot of the "what the hell?" factor when a city you didn't suspect was discontented flips. Most of the times I know which cities are at risk, but ocasionally one will catch me off guard.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
(1) smuggling of produce/funds to other nation (some lost corruption&waste turns up in an enemy city as useful shields and gold)

Doesn't seem powerful enough. I'm open to ideas, but I want to preserve the importance of culture and thus CF.

Besides, in cities with the most cultural problems (newly conquered) you aren't going to have any useful shields and gold anyway.

(2) Some of the population flips: An enemy settler is created next to the city (on their go so it can move immediately). Obviously this can be stopped by stationing troops around the city (berlin wall).

Too weak, IMO. Besides, during wartime flips it would just generate free workers that I could add back on to the city next turn.

(3) defecting units. one or two units dissappear and turn up across the border as traitor units. These convert-class units could be marked as such and might have a chance of flipping back. If the converts are the only units in the city then the city culturally flips. veterans have a low chance of conversion. Elites have almost no change of flipping. Elite* units never flip.

Interesting idea. Could work.

(4) sabotage by enemy patriots causes damage to units (perhaps one or two points of damage). This could result in the destruction of a unit. If there are no units left then the city CFs.

IMO, insufficiently powerful. I would just garrison cities more heavily and be done with it.

My ideal improvement to CF (even though I love it as is) would be how it is now, but when the flip happened:

- A few units would be converted, and stay as garrison.
- All other units would be expelled 1 to 2 tiles away form the city, and they would take a few hit points of damage (possibly enough to kill some units in some cases).

[Pyrodrew]

As we can see here, what ever CF idea they used people would have complained about it. Just like we see with the Resources idea.

That aside, I like the simple added warning idea best.

[bongo]

cyclotron7 , I agree to your idea on (4). Large armies just don't disappear without a fight.

Anyway, I like it the way it is now No need for big changes.