Civ-2 also in Civ-3 - Is it only me?

[Ralf]

I want to recognize something of that homey feeling of the old Civ-2 game, in Civ-3 also. Actually, i wouldnt mind if perhaps 80% of all Civ-2 units, city-improvements and wonders in Civ-2 re-appeared in Civ-3, as well.

Dont change for the sake of change! Am i the only one in this forum feeling this way?

[QW1020]

I agree with you

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I would say I want no more then 70% of civ2 units, improvements, etc. in civ3. Dont get me wrong, civ2 was great for its time, but I want civ3 to be much, much more realistic, and I want alot more units.

[Tical_2000]

Totally agree with Ralf. There was never a real big problem with the Civ2 units & wonders. The problem I think we're all hoping for Civ3 to fix is the idiotic AI as well as adding fresh, new game concepts and features to immerse us more.

[DarkCloud]

Yes, the civ II graphics should remain; but they wont

[DrFell]

frankly, id be happy if all that was improved in civ3 was the ai, and more civs available at a time (as well as better barbs ). im expecting much more, but i just hope that the basic parts of civ2 are not changed. e.g. all the old wonders still in there, maybe balanced out a bit, and all the old improvements, units, etc. with a few changes. im expecting lots of new units, improvements, and wonders though.

[Jer8m8]

(I have not played TOT)

I hav eheard that TOT has the original civ2 and other games. Why not also have the original civ2 come packaged or on the same cd as civ3

[zyxpsilon]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 12-16-2000 04:59 PM Am i the only one in this forum feeling this way?

Built upon solid evidence units and authenticity throughout a "general" representativeness of changes and evolution eras... Yes!
Can't certainly dismantle Stealth planes or Crusaders... for examples.
That being said, it is not in the "amount" or "type" of units you must handle but rather, how well balanced and interactived they are brought into play.
There will always be the -missing- key unit, wished for, should be tried, forgot elementary that MUST get a slot in the making of Civ3.
Within >programmable< restrictions, the customisation power and diversification process has to account for; say, the discovery of electricity and the making of light bulbs AND the overwhelming streak of dynamic usage of energy loaded *UNITS*.

I'd swear for 100% keeping of those (already done) Units.
But i won't.
Give me... a >>SPACE CRAFT<< instead?
But i don't.

How about another kind'a Submarine? Deep sea able.

YOU are not the only one, Ralf!

[Ralf]

DIABLO, BRO. OF MEPHISTO:

With that that 80% figure i only refered to the amount of units, city-improvements and wonders taken from the old Civ-2 game. I expect however, that Firaxis will enlarge the overal number of available unit-types, city-improvements and wonders, by at least 20%. In practice this means:

- 2/3 old units vs 1/3 new fresh ones
- The same ratio (more or less) goes for city-improvements and wonders.

DARKCLOUD:

I dont mind (and i expect) a graphic facelift (but TOT was unfortunately not a good example, of that). It is the type- and naming convention that i think should remain, mostly the same.

Perhaps it was the latter you refered to, then you wrote "graphics". Well, if so lets hope you are wrong about that. I dont want Samurai instead of Legion, Shrine and bazaar instead of temple and marketplace and Sphinx instead of Pyramids. Again; dont change for the sake of change.

TO ALL OF YOU:

I forgot about the Civ-2 techs:

The Civ-2 tech-tree should be enlarged by 20-25%. Some good rearrangements of course. About 2/3 of this new tech-tree should consist of old familiar Civ-2 techs. The remaining 1/3 should be new fresh ones, give or take.

NO SMAC-style beyond 2040AD techs. Let SMAC be SMAC, and let Civ-3 be Civ-3 - dont mix them togeter in the main game. For futuristic Civ-3play; tailor-cut someting nice with the scenario-editor instead, or play the future scenarios, im sure Firaxis is going to include together with the main game.

[DrFell]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 12-17-2000 05:32 AM NO SMAC-style beyond 2040AD techs. Let SMAC be SMAC, and let Civ-3 be Civ-3 - dont mix them togeter in the main game. For futuristic Civ-3play; tailor-cut someting nice with the scenario-editor instead, or play the future scenarios, im sure Firaxis is going to include together with the main game.

i agree... civ2 goes far enough into the future as it is. i dont want to see loads of unrealistic sci-fi techs popping up; i see civ3 as being a realistic game, based on history, and a resonable assumption of what may be possible in 20-40 years time. 'future techs' fill in for the sci-fi advances.

[orange]

This is a "do you want Civ 3 or Civ 2.5" question. As far as I'm concerned...if I'm going to pay 50$ for a game, it better be mostly new. At first, the upgrade from Civ 1 to Civ 2 was awful for me. I didn't move correctly (I was used to the simple square layout as opposed to the diamonds of Civ 2), there were more units to understand...but soon it grew on me. The same will happen with Civ 3 if it is mostly new.

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[airdrik]

I agree. After all, you should be able to change the units/tech tree/terrain/etc. as you please like you can do in civ2. You don't need to worry about working on the look and feel of the game, as of yet. That can be done after the game is out.

What we need to do here is work out all the AI, diplomacy, SE, etc. internal workings of the game. Also, we should work out the unit workshop ideas for if that is included in the game.

The only things that need be changed on the units is to add any flags in the .txt file that would make different units more realistic. And for the terrains, they are fine (unless surprise and ambush are implemented, in which case one value would be added: cover: affects chances that a unit is spotted before a surprise/ambush). The tech tree is fine as is(except for making it bigger).

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 01:29 PM This is a "do you want Civ 3 or Civ 2.5" question.

Its not about that, Orange. Its instead about "quality before quantity". Its about concentrate developing resources on issues that really matters.

(And i dont think that spending countless hours trying to figure out unnatural and dubious unit-, tech-, city-improvement- and wonder replacements, easily falls in in the "really matters" -category).

Firaxis should always remember, that once the Civ-3 game is released, there are only two potential player/game-magazine complains, that towers highly above anything else:

- "This interface/game-feedback really stinks!"
- "What a piece of crap this AI is".

For the strategy of trying to cram as many features as possible into the game. Well, theres a saying that goes "If your try to please everybody, then you might end up pleasing nobody". Look what happend to CTP.

[orange]

not so Ralf! Maybe what you feel "really matters" isn't what others care about. You can't speak for everyone.

For some, better units/wonders/techs may be the core issue.

Personally I would much rather see a better diplomatic system set up before I see better AI (though I do want that as well)

Everyone has a different ranking of what they want and don't want in this game.

By Civ 2.5/3 I mean do you as a person want to see Civ 2 with the tweaks necessary to make it better, or do you want to see a completely reworked game - ala Civ 1 to Civ 2. I know some people would be happy with an upgrade...I personally would feel cheated. How you or others feel is a different story, but I respect that.

What Firaxis needs to do is find a way to bring in new players while satisfying the old gurus like us I agree with you on one thing Ralf...

quote: If your try to please everybody, then you might end up pleasing nobody".

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~ The poster formerly known as "OrangeSfwr"

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 04:03 PM By Civ 2.5/3 I mean do you as a person want to see Civ 2 with the tweaks necessary to make it better, or do you want to see a completely reworked game - ala Civ 1 to Civ 2.

I think we are talking past each over, Orange!

An upgrade ala Civ-1 to Civ-2 is exactly what i want to see. A large part of the units, wonders, techs and city-improvements from Civ-1 re-appeared in Civ-2 as well. STILL it was pretty massive upgrade!

The trouble is what many in these forums dreaming of a game that converts Civ-2 into Civ-10 instead. Below i copied from a previous thread:

"Its also a question of what is workable and feasible solution for the programmers point of view, as well. Many gamers just take this or that Civ-2 or SMAC solution, and then try hard to come up with much more complicated and more "accurate to our real world" type of suggestion, as a replacement.
They just dont understand what exponentially increasing AI-calculation problems and AI-developing and debugging problems, that adding this or that complicated suggestion, actually would create for the developers".

Having said above - im NOT content with a shallow Sim City 2000 to Sim City 3000 type of upgrade. Rest assured!