Postmodern Civ

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser
And the ridiculous assertion that this is representative of 'Western' mental constructs when it could easily be seen in the Roman culture of expansion and conquest and their perceptions of their neighbors, to name just one example.

Uh, Roman civilization IS western.
As to the rest of your post, I think you just don't really understand the concepts and constructs of post-modernism.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
As to the rest of your post, I think you just don't really understand the concepts and constructs of post-modernism.

I don't think you know what I went through in college with that stuff. What's your background in it?

p.s. I'm talking hemispheres here, so no, it ain't western.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser


I don't think you know what I went through in college with that stuff. What's your background in it?

So? Just because you took something in college doesn't mean you understand it. My background is university.

p.s. I'm talking hemispheres here, so no, it ain't western.

That's funny, because I could have sworn it was a quote... Were you not referring to the writer of the original article? If not my comment is withdrawn. Though, in any case, much of the Roman civilization was in the western hemisphere...

[ruby_maser]

he made comments about American values creeping into the game (which I think is more than a little ridiculous). I was just using broader brushstrokes when saying Western, sorry.

I would like to know what aspects post-modernism thought I'm not quite catching. You must have examples to site, but I'm wondering how unbiased a conversation I can have with a person running around with a signature like yours. You wear your feelings about America on your sleeve.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser
kind of like that whole egocentric use of semiotics and deconstructivist theory to muddle and confuse what seems to boil down to just a general dislike for the connotation of the word 'barbarian'.

I disagree with this point simply because I think there is more to the article than you clam here. Also, given that he's discussing this from a postmodern perspective, the idea that he shouldn't use semantics to discuss a dislike for connations just seems plain ridiculous, IMO.

And the ridiculous assertion that this is representative of 'Western' mental constructs when it could easily be seen in the Roman culture of expansion and conquest and their perceptions of their neighbors, to name just one example.

I will grant you this point, but I believe it to be irrelevant. Just because it can be found elsewhere doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in 'Western' (shall we say 'American'?) culture. I don't currently have time to search the entire article to see whether or not he said it was exclusive; if so, I withdraw this comment.

Which would lead to the conclusion that their can exist (but not necessarily intrinsically) a cultural perception based on any group of peoples' sense of worth (or belief in their own superiority) in relation to another. Look around, that is certainly not a Western phenomenon.

I believe that the postmodern aspect missing here is that of of the case of postmodern mini-narratives and modern grand narratives. In essence, to explain the culture's sense of itself with a sense of worth is more modern than it is postmodern.

To say this game was designed with the world in mind would not be an untrue statement anymore than to say that it was designed by a group of humans who are as subject as the rest of us to slipping into less-inclusive, more-provincial modes of thought and who are limited, as we all are, by a unique amalgamation of cultural perception, biases, and experiences that could inadvertently have been introduced into the game.Now you design one and see if you don't do the same.

True, it is difficult (probably impossible) to get completely outside of your culture (esp. the way you perceive things). However, this is not a good argument to not try to move towards a more universal and less regional game. In general, I don't tend to go for 'I'd like to see you do better' arguments. I think they tend to be reactionary and defensive, rather than working with the given criticism to ultimately move dialectically forward.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser
he made comments about American values creeping into the game (which I think is more than a little ridiculous). I was just using broader brushstrokes when saying Western, sorry.

I think there are definitely American values in the game, though they're not exclusively American. The point about building power iin virtually all games is valid, IMO, though. How many multi-player (AI being considered as a player) games have you played that aren't competitve? My mom went out of her way to buy me a few games that were co-operative rather than competitive when I was young, but other than those, I can't really think of any (BTW, has anyone heard of these games? I can't quite remember what they were called, but it seemed to me that one was about growing vegetables and making sure had enough to eat, and another was about trying to get the group to GRandmother's house or something). Even the sims, which isn't really competitive, espouses consumerist values, which I would argue are, in fact, primarily (though not exclusively) American.

I would like to know what aspects post-modernism thought I'm not quite catching. You must have examples to site, but I'm wondering how unbiased a conversation I can have with a person running around with a signature like yours. You wear your feelings about America on your sleeve.

I wear my feelings about America on my sleeves because I believe there is no greater nor eviler(?) force in the current world, on the whole. I'm not sure what would make you think my conversation would be any more biased as a result of this than your lack thereof.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by punkbass2000 I believe that the postmodern aspect missing here is that of of the case of postmodern mini-narratives and modern grand narratives. In essence, to explain the culture's sense of itself with a sense of worth is more modern than it is postmodern.

I'm not sure you or I know what you are talking about. Would you like me to post the web address of the article you ran to in order to get that crap?

I'm glad you think postmodern doctrine is missing from the statement you were referring to because it was never meant to have it. It doesn't matter which school of thought you apply it to, fact is fact. America did not invent the concepts of subjugation. And to say it is a modernist of postmodernist statement is really to miss the point.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by punkbass2000 I wear my feelings about America on my sleeves because I believe there is no greater nor eviler(?) force in the current world, on the whole. I'm not sure what would make you think my conversation would be any more biased as a result of this than your lack thereof.

I may love my country but I would not blindly defend its past transgression just as I do not defend its subjugation of native people on this continent (it certainly wasn't the first to do so, though). I'm dispassionate about the issue.

Your signature is all the proof I need to know you've got alot of anger in you. Maybe some of it is legitimately pointed at America but probably not, and it doesn't take a genius to know that that can cloud your judgement. Your age in your profile suggests you'll outgrow this though

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser


I'm not sure you or I know what you are talking about. Would you like me to post the web address of the article you ran to in order to get that crap?

I'm glad you think postmodern doctrine is missing from the statement you were referring to because it was never meant to have it. It doesn't matter which school of thought you apply it to, fact is fact. America did not invent the concepts of subjugation. And to say it is a modernist of postmodernist statement is really to miss the point.

Objection withdrawn.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by ruby_maser


I may love my country but I would not blindly defend its past transgression just as I do not defend its subjugation of native people on this continent (it certainly wasn't the first to do so, though). I'm dispassionate about the issue.

What makes you think I'm any different? I'm not sure why you assume that I must be some sort of extremist or that your pro-American views are any less biased than my anti-American. Though you have provided an argument for why you may not be biased, you have not demonstrated why I would be.

Your signature is all the proof I need to know you've got alot of anger in you.

Then you need to get a fact checker. I have a ridiculously small amount of anger in me. Just the opposite, in fact. I can't tell you when the last time I was angry was, but I can tell you it was last millenium.

[MiloMilo]

2 cents: PB2G, I think you have an exaggerated view of what constitute "American values." America is a young country, and most of its values are derived pretty directly from Europe.

I would agree that there is no greater military force than America's armed forces, and that there is no greater economic force than American consumers. But, to hear someone embrace postmodernism so strongly and then talk about great evils is silly.

For what it's worth, I found the article under review here to be a mostly useless piece of observation that masked its lack of sophistication with big words. (For that matter, I think a lot of postmodern sholarship does this.) brianshapiro gave a better criticism of it than I could, so I will only add this: what I find most objectionable about that article is not necessarily what it got wrong, but rather that it doesn't say anything interesting even if it was right.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by MiloMilo
2 cents: PB2G, I think you have an exaggerated view of what constitute "American values." America is a young country, and most of its values are derived pretty directly from Europe.

Where they came from is irrelevant.

But, to hear someone embrace postmodernism so strongly and then talk about great evils is silly.

I am not a post-modernist. IMO, post-modernism is rehashed sophism, though with less focus on profit. I don't know where you got the idea that I 'embrace' postmodernism.

[MiloMilo]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I am not a post-modernist. IMO, post-modernism is rehashed sophism, though with less focus on profit. I don't know where you got the idea that I 'embrace' postmodernism.

Fair enough. I must have misread one of your posts above. This info makes your positions more consistent, though unfortunately no less objectionable.

Toodles

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by MiloMilo


Fair enough. I must have misread one of your posts above. This info makes your positions more consistent, though unfortunately no less objectionable.

Toodles

Objectionable? Maybe. Wrong? Maybe. Free Country? Yeah right.

[ruby_maser]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by punkbass2000
I take it you think that guy should be able to spurt out anything he wants. There are limitations to personal freedoms in every country, punk. Ours just espoused the concept of having as few as possible. There has to be rules.

You can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre either. It's one thing to not be able to threaten the life of a president, but this is just too much