My complete technology tree

[wernazuma]

Ok, here another few suggestions to the tech.-tree, but at first I want to add that this isn’t intended to destruct your list. I like it but some things have to be rethought.
Generally I don’t really see the need for some of the early inventions. Civ3 should start with the time of the “Neolithic revolution, i.e. the plant domestication. but anyway, in this post I’m only commenting the techs you offer:

Paganism: paganism is NOT the word for the earliest religions. Paganism is the word for the religion of peasants in early Christian times and was used mostly in combination with superstition. I’d rather suggest Animism, the belief that every being and thing is inhabited by a spirit. that’s the type of religion most “primitive” cultures have. but I raise the question if “animism” hasn’t existed from the dawn of mankind on.
storytelling you can imagine any human society without storytelling? I think ceremonial burial or agriculture are better prereqs. for Writing as first writings were records of items in the warehouses of centralized agricultural societies or to tell stories about the lives of dead leaders in their graves.
The Wheelthe wheel is only really useful with the domestication of animals; therefore I suggest “domestication” as a prereq.
archery why does archery lead to feudalism? archery is simply an advance in weaponry whereas feudalism is a form of social system. i can’t see any connection between the 2 techs.
do you consider alphabet is a wonder? if so, what does it and when does it expire?
The Council; I think some forms of council have always existed as form of tribal government and I don’t see its ties to the calendar.
astronomyI’ve said it somewhere before: copernicus’ observatory should be combined with optics

Trade and Currency: as I and others have stated in the thread “2 things I always wanted to say” it’s the other way around: first trade, then currency; the Aztecs had long range trade routes without using metal-currency. Please read the thread, I’ll bump it up.

until now, I let my post until here; if you think it’s useful tell me and I go on.


PS: I have seen the tech-tree of CtP2 now and have to say: brrrrrrrrr; what do you say to: Theology ->Fascism -> Nationalism
?????????????????


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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra
[This message has been edited by wernazuma (edited November 15, 2000).]

[DarkCloud]

Shouldn't Nationalism be before Fascism?

[wernazuma]

exactly what i thought...
and: what has theology to do with that?

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-15-2000 01:41 PM Ok, here another few suggestions to the tech.-tree, but at first I want to add that this isn’t intended to destruct your list.'

So far your comments on my ideas have always been very constructive

quote: Paganism: paganism is NOT the word for the earliest religions. Paganism is the word for the religion of peasants in early Christian times and was used mostly in combination with superstition. I’d rather suggest Animism, the belief that every being and thing is inhabited by a spirit. that’s the type of religion most “primitive” cultures have. but I raise the question if “animism” hasn’t existed from the dawn of mankind on.

Animism is a good find . Together with Herding it could lead to Shamanism, and then combine with Ceremonial Burial into (classic) Polytheism.
I'm a bit hesitant to add another religion branch, but I'll think about it. At least it now seems to me that the Shaman is not in the proper place.

The word Paganism dates from early Christianity, but Paganism has existed (independently from Animism) since barbaric times. Paganism is a generalization of Polytheism that allows me to put this branch of religion in its correct place before Ceremonial Burial.
Paganism is an important prereq for The Calendar.

quote: storytelling you can imagine any human society without storytelling? I think ceremonial burial or agriculture are better prereqs. for Writing as first writings were records of items in the warehouses of centralized agricultural societies or to tell stories about the lives of dead leaders in their graves.

While Writing came at the same time as Agriculture, there is no obvious link until after the two met. Its early roots are not in bookkeeping but in identification, hence Herbal Lore as a prereq.
Ceremonial Burial would not be a good prereq because some societies had Writing without CB. Instead, your argument tells me that Storytelling is the right choice

quote: The Wheelthe wheel is only really useful with the domestication of animals; therefore I suggest “domestication” as a prereq.[/b]

A link to Herding would be superfluous in my tree since Herding (or Domestication) leads to Agriculture, which leads to Pottery, which leads to The Wheel (the earliest use of wheels in Pottery).

quote: archery why does archery lead to feudalism?

Archery allows the defence of castles. Cross-links between the several branches of the tree (eg social and military) is essential to game balance.

quote: Do you consider alphabet is a wonder? if so, what does it and when does it expire?

The Alphabet is a Wonder because it is unique: it was invented only once (and much later than Writing). As we still use it today it won't expire. I'm still thinking about its exact function.

quote: The CouncilI think some forms of council have always existed as form of tribal government and I don’t see its ties to the calendar.

In the smaller tribal communities, as a rule everybody participated in the decision making. With agriculture, decisions had to be made about planting, harvesting, irrigating etc. The discovery of The Calendar made this possible. At the same time, the larger number of people called for a form of hierarchy.

quote: astronomyI’ve said it somewhere before: copernicus’ observatory should be combined with optics

That is a feasible idea . Optics would also be a prereq for The Laser, and may spring from the discovery of Glass (2500 BC) and Glassblowing (1 AD). I will consider this.

quote: Trade and Currency: as I and others have stated in the thread “2 things I always wanted to say” it’s the other way around: first trade, then currency; the Aztecs had long range trade routes without using metal-currency. Please read the thread, I’ll bump it up.

Well, the word trade has narrow and broad meanings. Goods were already traded between primitive tribes.
Trade in Civ, however, is intended to represent trade of goods for money (or valuables, or other neutral stuff). There could be a prereq called Barter as has been suggested, but it wouldn't add anything to the game, nor would it need to be discovered as it has always been there.

quote: I let my post until here; if you think it’s useful tell me and I go on.

Please go on

quote: PS: I have seen the tech-tree of CtP2 now and have to say: brrrrrrrrr; what do you say to: Theology ->Fascism -> Nationalism

Fascism is at best a very minor "discovery" in human civilization, but it should follow Nationalism, not lead to it. It is a form of Fundamentalism, which is already in the tree, so there is no need to put Fascism in.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-15-2000 07:19 PM Shouldn't Nationalism be before Fascism?

Right O !!

I see that in this thread bits and parts of the discussion on advancements in the thread "tech tree 1.0" by Dark Cloud re-occur. This reply has been posted in almost the same form in that thread as a reaction to posts by Wernazuma and and Ribannah.


First a historical explanation, just to put things in perspective .

Romanticism has its roots in mid 18th century France. It’s most important "prophet" was the Genevan writer/pamfletteer Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778), who f.i. wrote "Du contrat social". The one thing romanticism is about, is (personal) self-determination. In literature a new phenomen appeared the novel (french/dutch/german=roman: a novellist=romancier) in which the personal life of citizens was the main subject. A good example of a german "romantic" book is "die Leiden des jungen Werthers", from Goethe first published ± 1790. Romantic idea’s played a very important role in the american and french revolution.

The expression the rights of man comes from the name of a pamflet written by a scottish American Thomas Paine *, in favor of the french revolution. He’s also is the writer of two other pamflets of which the names have stuck in the "westernworld" collective memory, "Common Sense" and "the Age of Reason". "Common sense" was written during the American revolution, "the Age of Reason" after the french revolution. All three pamflets basically are about basing the right of self-determination of a people/nations on reason. (BTW one of the example’s for the american and french republic was the dutch republic (for whom (little known) the suisse republic was an example)) (in the NL there was widespread "patriotic" support for the american and french revolutionary cause).

After the revolt in 1789 in France a "constitutional" republic was founded. The constitution (D=Grundgesetz, NL=grondwet) was to be the foundation of the whole legislative system. This law, a legislative novelty !!, started with a summary of the rights of man. The revolutionary concept of administration and legislation was based on the Trias Politica. In the french revolutionary constitution also was stated that all citizens (mind you, in those days there wasn’t any talk about women(rights/duties)) had the duty to defend their country. This lead to the introduction of Conscription. The large "people’s-armies" lead by (a.o.) Napoleon swept across the european mainland. There’s also the brilliance of Napoleon as a strategist, but in general the opponent states just couldn’t power up against the massive french force. Britain had to heavily use pressgangs to reinforce its army and navy.
After the revolution was corrupted for (also but mainly) napoleonic dynastic reasons, Napoleon propagated the threat of the occupation of the "french fatherland" itself, and used this as a reason to maintain the armies/conscription. You can say Nationalism was born in that moment of time. "Allons enfant the leur patrie . . etc."

The revolution and its ideas about people’s-rights/legislation/administration had been exported all over the continent. In general all over Europe the french occupation at first was welcomed with great enthousiam, f.i. Jews and in the Netherlands also the catholics (a.o. tolerated religions) for the first time were given equal civilian rights. In Germany and Austria it inspired a complete generation with revolutionary/romantic (nationalistic/liberal) ideals**.
After the french were beaten, all over Europe a/the reaction (to the revolution) set in. Large parts of the legislative and administrative system based on the Trias Politica, just without a sigh were adopted by the reactionary, Conservative monarchistic/impirial governments. The reaction first and foremost meant that the revolutionary constitution (with all its people’s-rights !!!!!) was abandoned. But, all over Europe one revolutionary duty remained, . . . . . conscription. The idea must have appealed to the governments (as happened in the NL), it was a cheap way to produce massive armies. Because of the fact that the people were kept from their former (revolutionary) rights, nationalistic propaganda "We must keep France at bay" was heavily used as a way to justify conscription.
Nationalism as an ideological set of ideas about the self-determination of a nation has helped to emancipate smaller nations, like the Belgians, under Dutch rule from 1815 to 1830, the Greeks (Turkish rule up to 1836), the Serbs (Turkish rule up to 1878), the Norwegians (Swedish rule up to 1905, etc.) That’s I think the good side of Nationalism.

During the reaction Liberalism and Socialism as movements emerged.
Liberalism was a movement less radical than the french revolutionary movement but still based on the romantic ideas of self-determination. It was concerned with civilian and administrative renewal, re-installment of the constitution, but only the right to vote for those who were able to pay taxes, which meant no votes for the "mob/proles". Economical it leaned heavily on the ideas of the scottish American Adam Smith !! (1723-1790), who propagated very little state influence on trade and industrial affairs, a strong reaction towards the former british and also (!) french (Colbertism) monarchistic practice.
Socialism was based on the more radical ideas which (a.o.) Rousseau wrote about. The term Socialism also comes from late18th century France. Vote had to be given to every citizen, whether paying taxes or not. Economical it said that governments had a social duty towards their citizens, should protect them from bad working conditions.

Both liberalism and socialism were strongly oppressed by the reactionary governments. In 1830 and in 1848 in dramatic climatological conditions which caused cropfailure (potatoedisease in Ireland), famine and economical depression, this lead to "romantic" revolutions all over Europe (in 1848 in NL we didn’t have a revolution. But the King (Willem II van Oranje-Nassau) was just so scared out of his wits that he literally overnight gave in to the liberals, a new (second !) constitution was instated in 1849.).

1848 also gave birth to an even more radical movement than socialism, Communism a term being invented by Marx and Engels. In "das Kommunistische Manifest" they stated that should the working class survive and prosper, all economical means should be ruled/owned by it.

Early 20th century, right after WW-I, the process of becoming a unity-state in Italy and Germany got so frustrated that politics radicalized. And that’s when Fascism/(c.q.)National-Socialism appeared.

Underneath of all of this lies the social and economical change from the organization of the working and trading class through guilds towards industrialization and free trade.
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So, here I go.

Romanticism + Trias Politica > Constitution (rights of man)
Romanticism > Nationalism
Romanticism + Economics > Liberalism
Romanticism + Industrialization > Socialism
Romanticism > Conservatism (reaction)
Constitution > Conscription
Socialism > Communism
Liberalism + economics > Free trade
Nationalism + Socialism > Fascism

You can see Romanticism is pivotal in these scheme. Somehow it’s the epitome of 18th century, and the base of all the 19th & 20th century ideological developments.

Rifle men (which in CIV-II come with conscription) were a very important military advancements. It gave the "west" for the first real supreme military power over their colonies !! (muskets were just a bit to slow for that). In my "complete tech-tree" they would come with machine tools

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*Last summer, very surprising to me, I heard a beautiful almost "republican" song about Paine being sung by an enthousiastic audience in a folkclub in Whitby, North-Yorkshire, England. Things like that I didn’t expect to happen in the United Kingdom. That really added to the english experience on my holiday.
**which in the end after some 60 years lead to the re-unification of germany as a unity-state, which scared the hell out of the french, the english and the russians, which lead to an armsrace, which culminated in the first and second world war and last be not least luckily enough in the cold, and not the third world, war.
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited December 18, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 11-17-2000 12:32 PM Romanticism + Trias Politica > Constitution (rights of man) Romanticism > Nationalism Romanticism + Economics > Liberalism Romanticism + Industrialization > Socialism Romanticism > Conservatism (reaction) Constitution > Conscription Socialism > Communism Liberalism + economics > Free trade Nationalism + Socialism > Fascism You can see Romanticism is pivotal in these scheme. Somehow it’s the epitome of 18th century, and the base of all the 19th & 20th century ideological developments.

Constitution, Conscription (a dead line anyway) and Facism (ditto) are too minor IMHO; Conservatism is not much of an advance at all.
Nationalism is older than Romanticism and besides, I need the cross-link with Printing.
Instead of Free Trade as an advance I have Free Market as social engineering, upon the discovery of The Corporation. I'm inclined to move that forward to Liberalism.

What I can see is a link from Romanticism to Socialism - but through Communism, thereby replacing the older Humanism as a prereq which I wanted to remove anyway, since Humanism is superfluous here (it's already on the path to Industrialization). Thanks for helping me find a solution here . I'm also thinking about rerouting Human Rights. This produces:

Romanticism + Economics -> Liberalism
Romanticism + Industrialization -> Communism
Liberalism + Communism -> Socialism
Socialism + Human Rights -> Labor Union

which would make Romanticism more pivotal (and of course it still allows the Sydney Opera House to be built ).

quote: Rival men (which in CIV-II come with conscription) were a very important military advancements. It gave the "west" for the first real supreme military power over their colonies !! (muskets were just a bit to slow for that). In my "complete tech-tree" they would come with machine tools

That would be way too late. Riflemen are still in my tree, too, but they arrive with Tactics, together with cavalry. I removed both Conscription and Machine Tools to make room for more to-the-point advances such as Nationalism and Hydraulics.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited November 21, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

* B U M P *

Edited the tree (see original post) ...

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited December 16, 2000).]

[wernazuma]

ok, like always my own 2 cents on this:

I think industrialization should be more embedded in the economics.
if we look on the capital flows of the early 19th century we can see that most capital went from Europe to Europe and the commerce with colonies made only some 15%.

so I think the reasons for industrialization lay much more in europe and had little to do with colonialism. I’d rather suggest rairoad+economics for in your tree you can industrialize with “banking” as the highest economy advance. IMHO without a stock market, capitalistic production and a bourgeoisie industrialization would have never happened.
a similar thing applies to communism, as for you it has romanticism and industrialization as prereqs. so there could be communism without economics!?
I’d rather say industrialization+enlightenment (no marx without hegel, st.simon et al.)

to make the tree more coherent it could be also: industrialization+liberalism = corporation then. this would give liberalism more importance then. because in your tree capitalization and free market economy are in two different branches what is, err, not understandable for me.

and for women’s suffrage: shouldn’t it be somewhen after democracy and human rights?
there fore I think it should come with labor union, and labor union should have democracy+socialism as prereqs.




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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 12-17-2000 09:11 AM ok, like always my own 2 cents on this:

The pot is growing slowly, but surely

quote: I think industrialization should be more embedded in the economics. If we look on the capital flows of the early 19th century we can see that most capital went from Europe to Europe and the commerce with colonies made only some 15%. So I think the reasons for industrialization lay much more in europe and had little to do with colonialism. I’d rather suggest railroad+economics for in your tree you can industrialize with “banking” as the highest economy advance.

This is the same in Civ2 (Railroad + Banking -> Industrialization), and rightly so IMHO. Most countries did industrialize without a Stock Market. Shares were simply traded on a person to person basis.
Colonialism (<-Banking) is a prereq because the richesses taken from the new lands greatly increased both consumer demand and available resources.

quote: A similar thing applies to communism, as for you it has romanticism and industrialization as prereqs. so there could be communism without economics!? I’d rather say industrialization+enlightenment (no marx without hegel, st.simon et al.)

Again, just like in Civ2 where age-old Philosophy(!) is a prereq instead of Romanticism. Theories about invisible hands is one thing Communism doesn't need, it uses visible hands!! Note that Enlightenment is on the path to Romanticism (via Nationalism).

quote: To make the tree more coherent it could be also: industrialization+liberalism = corporation then. This would give liberalism more importance because in your tree capitalization and free market economy are in two different branches what is, err, not understandable for me.

There were plenty of corporations in the Soviet Union (Russia got the Communism tech from France without ever researching Liberalism ), so I think the split is correct.

quote: For women’s suffrage: shouldn’t it be somewhen after democracy and human rights? Therefore I think it should come with labor union, and labor union should have democracy+socialism as prereqs.

Not Democracy, after all women voting in a Republic was already an issue, but with Human Rights you have a point. There should be an advance Emancipation (<- Industrialization, Human Rights) for this wonder - but I have no room at the moment ! Democracy IS on the path to Labor Union btw (->Human Rights->).

Thanks for your thoughts!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited December 17, 2000).]

[orange]

Ribs - that's very impressive. Nice work!

Seems like you've been working for a good long while on that. I definitely like your ideas.

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[Deity Dude]

Great job, I can see alot of work went into it. Now for my 2 cents. SLAVERY seems like an important tech, which is funny because I saw Abolshmnet of Slavery as an outcome to Humanitarianism. I think RADAR or maybe even multiple levels of RADAR would be a nice addition, after all many historians believe RADAR is what won the Battle of Britain for the allys.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 12-17-2000 11:42 AM Most countries did industrialization without a stock market.

That's right.
The first stockmarket(1605/or9 Amsterdam)s in the world financed (colonial) trade-enterprises.
The first factories very often were mills powered by steam enginees instead of waterwheels, and this conversion didn't take that much capital. When later on whole processes were thoroughly mechanized, and new larger factories could be build corporations (of shareholders) were needed to finance them. So somehow stockmarkets are needed further on.