Knowledgeyou don't understand

[rremus]

Hi,
I don't think is fair that you can obtain knowledge trough conquest or exchange wich is simply way out of your current level. I suggest that when you obtain such a knowledge, it should NOT be available to you. It should stay in an 'inactive' mode until you have the required knowledge to understand it.
E.g. you obtain Philosophy from an exchange, but you don't have Literacy. As soon as you research Literacy, you will also obtain Philosophy. Something like 'Our scientist have discovered Literacy. They finally understood that Philosophy we obtained from the Greeks 4 turns ago'.
Even more, if the advance you obtained requires more steps on the tech tree, you won't even be able to see the name of that advance. You conquer a city and you select some 'Unknown advace'. Later on the game, when you've reached on the tech tree the branch than is one level below that 'Unknown advance', you'll get a message like 'Our scientist have understood what is the Unknown Advance we obtained 6 turns ago. Its is Mobile Warfare. We need to research Automobile to unrestand it completely'.
What do you think?
Regards,

[This message has been edited by rremus (edited October 27, 2000).]

[Deathwalker]

Personally I think overall it's a good idea but needs more details, also have tech given to you should be exceptable, though getting it though conquest should have some rules like size and age of city.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

[CornMaster]

I think that is an excellent idea. But I also think that when you conquer a city that you can build whatever the last civ was building. If they left something partly built I think the new civ should be able to finish it and learn from it.

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"The best meat is in the rump!"
I AM CANADIAN!
CornEmpire Index
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

[rremus]

quote: Originally posted by CornMaster on 10-16-2000 12:53 PM But I also think that when you conquer a city that you can build whatever the last civ was building

I'm not sure about this. You find the foundations of an aqueduct and you sudenly understand construction?
I think is more appropiate to learn advances related to city improvements you find intact! You find a Granary and you can understand Pottery. But this also is not very accurate. You see a Cathedral and ou suddenly understand Monotheism? Not sure about it.
BTW, I don't now how is the game working now, but if you conquer a city with a Cathedral and you didn't discover Monotheism, is the Cathedral still doing it's effect? I think it shouldn't. In fact, any improvement that is beyond your understanding should be destroyed. This is pretty much how it happens in the real world

[UltraSonix]

*Smacks hand on forehead*

This is the best suggestion here for a while! It's so simple and yet elegant!

quote: I don't think is fair that you can obtain knowledge trough conquest or exchange wich is simply way out of your current level. I suggest that when you obtain such a knowledge, it should NOT be available to you. It should stay in an 'inactive' mode until you have the required knowledge to understand it.

This, as stated like this, should definitely be implemented!

quote: Even more, if the advance you obtained requires more steps on the tech tree, you won't even be able to see the name of that advance. You conquer a city and you select some 'Unknown advace'. Later on the game, when you've reached on the tech tree the branch than is one level below that 'Unknown advance', you'll get a message like 'Our scientist have understood what is the Unknown Advance we obtained 6 turns ago. Its is Mobile Warfare. We need to research Automobile to unrestand it completely'.

This is a very good idea, and perhaps the "unknown advance" could be called "research papers" or "scientific papers".

And I agree with rremus, the build-last-thing idea might not be so good...

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

[Tiberius]

I think Remus has right, but I also have a small counterproposal.

I think sometimes you could apply techs which are beyond your knowledge level. This is especially true for (I'm not sure what is the right word here) "applied sciences". Your people could learn HOW to do some things, whitout knowing WHAT are they doing. Of course, you wouldn't be able to use this "half-known" knowledge for further research, or for trading purposes, until you discover all the prereq techs.
Maybe there should be some penalties for using such a "half-known" tech, for ex. slower or more expensive goods production.

Of course, this wouldn't work for all techs (for. ex, in the case of literacy->philosophy will not). But for "applied sciences" I think it's a sollution.

If this sounds too complicated, than Firaxis should use at least Remus' model.

[Shogun Gunner]

Good idea except the advances vary so wildly in complexity.

If I see pottery, I can figure out how to keep food in it.

If I see a tank, I have no idea what "mobile warfare" is, especially since it's more than technology...it involves military tactics.

I think your comments about a Cathedral in a conquered city would not give a deep understanding of Monotheism to the conquerers make sense... and yes, sadly in real life, you are right, usually these things are destroyed.

A rule would have to hold true throughout the game and it would be hard to work a rule that was fair to the two extremes of technologies.


[This message has been edited by Shogun Gunner (edited October 17, 2000).]

[phoenixcager]

I love rremus' idea. Don't you just hate it when you're ahead of everyone else in science, and suddenly some AIs who are extremely backward steal the necessary techs and start building their own.

[ColdWizard]

rremus' idea is good. If you don't have the requirements than you shouldn't be able to use the advanced tech.

[Joseph]

During WW2, the Russian were many years behind the United State in Bomber and Jet fighter development. In 1944, when we started to bomb Japan with the B-29, some of them crashed landed in Russia. The Russian did not give them back to us. In 1948 I belive, the Russian few several Bombers over Moscow for the May day parade, we thought they were our planes until our people got a closer look and found out the Russian had copies our planes as the TU-4. Also the new British PM in 1947/48 wanter to prove he was a good guy, so he gave the Russian a Roll Royce jet engine and two years later (1950) the Russian had the Mig-15 with the help of their German Engineers. After our traitors gave the Russian the A-bomb secrets, it only took four years for them to build one. When you gain the knowledge, you still have to build one (what ever it is).

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[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by Joseph on 10-19-2000 05:10 PM After our traitors gave the Russian the A-bomb secrets, it only took four years for them to build one. When you gain the knowledge, you still have to build one (what ever it is).

IIRC the information the russian received about the A-bomb was from spies. It was very partial and it took the russians several years to complete a whole A-bomb.

I think the acse with the ytaitors was about the H-bomb.

I'm not sure since I saw so many documentaries about this that my head aches

Am I right?
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Any way, regarding the Idea it-self, I agree.

I am sick and tired of the AI stealing "stealth" when he doesn't even have automobile. (ok ok, so I'm exaggurating here, but you get my point )

Also in the late game I often find the AIs trading things like: Litarcy, Misticism, Feudlaizm. And that's after the automobile. Does that make sense?
It's also because the AI often trades / steals techs ithout researching.

[Tiberius]

Since it seems to me that everybody here agree with this excellent idea, I say we should send it to Firaxis. It's not an earthquaking breaktrough in the developmnent of Civ3, but still a good idea, and it would be a shame to waste it.

We could send an e-mail to Firaxis, "signed" by as many apolytoners as possible. Who said we may send only lists?

What do you think?

[red_jon]

I think this is a great idea as--

I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not.

I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!!

While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour".

[Shogun Gunner]

quote: Originally posted by red_jon on 10-21-2000 06:26 AM I think this is a great idea as-- I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not. I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!! While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

Instead of "Chief Sitting Bull" he would have become "Chief Driving Dodge"

That is incredibly funny.

[UltraSonix]

quote: I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!! While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

So I guess that's why the orginal suggestion by rremus would probably be very good.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...