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  • RISK-II style combat - simultaneous, still not real-time

    In this second incarnation of this classic boardgame the game-designers have come up with a new idea: simultaneous combat, but still not real-time.
    Its not a fullprice-worthy game, but if you can get a hold of this game at reduced price, or borrow a copy to use as demo, i strongly advice you to do that - just to test out this feature, and think of how it could be used in Civ-3 as well.

    Heres how a Civ-adapted variant of it could work:
    ------------------------------------ Edited:
    The retreat-alternative should perhaps be scrapped. Only "attack" and "fortify", in order to keep things simple. Also: i never intended some dice-rolling nonsense. The RISK II "same turn" comparison only applies to some limited principal and Civ-adapted ideas from that game. Read further down, as this idea developes through each new post.
    --------------------------------------------

    Whenever the human player or any AI-civ wants to attack any other unit or city, a combat screen pops up automatically (only battles between human and AI, however - and even that can be bypassed through automatic combat-resolving, for the inpatient ones):

    From the battle-screen, the initiating attacker have the first go. Lets say the attacker has 5 attacking-units in his stacked army - the other one has, lets say 1 defence-unit and 2 attacker.

    The attacker can now choose between the following:

    - Ordering all hes units to attack all enemy units - unit against unit - on broad front.
    - Ordering all hes units to attack a single enemy unit, or a part of the enemy stack.
    - Ordering some of hes units to single out one enemy-unit (or part of the enemy-stack), while other units takes out the other unit/other part of the stack.

    If the human is the attacker, a button is pushed to confirm above choises. But before above combat its actually resolved however, the attacked army also have a go. He can choose between the following:

    - Ordering all units to attack himself - same alternatives as above.
    - Ordering all units to defend; fortify.
    - Ordering some units to attack, while some other units should defend.
    - Ordering all units to retreat: cause heavy damage and some losses, but most are still alive. Retreat only works outside cities.
    - Ordering some units to hold ground (attack/defend), while others retreat: this often dooms the ground-holders, but the retreating units have less damage.

    Then the attacked units have made their choices, the initiating attacker push a "resolve combat" button, and voila!

    Its important in above model - if you choose manual combat resolving - that you have complete and full control how to attack/defend/retreat. You CANNOT move around units on the battle-screen, but that doesnt matter - they all act like there was first-liners, and its their orders that decides who they gonna attack - not their placements on the battle-screen.

    Please, NO automatic placement/orders depending on unit-type, like in CTP-2.

    In fact - just for the fun of it - you can even temporarily switch side (within combat situations only, of course) and baby-sit the AI-units: Check out what best could be done, from their point of view. The AI automatically takes back its role after such "play both sides combats". Like playing chess with oneself.
    This is of course, not the default mode however, and you can forget about Hall of fame and endgame scores. (just like then you used the Cheat-meny in Civ-2).

    [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 11, 2000).]

  • #2
    quote:

    - Ordering all hes units to attack all enemy units - unit against unit - on broad front.

    Sounds very good - but just one question - how would this work? Does this have each attacking unit take on every other unit in the opposing stack, or is it each attacking unit is designated a particular unit in the other stack?

    ANd this systesm allows the defenders to always respond - perhaps in some situations/terrains they can be considered to have been ambushed and should not be allowed to attack back or perhaps even fortify.

    ------------------
    No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)
    No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)

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    • #3
      Have you guys ever played Deadlock? It was the same their too, I think. I didn't like it though. For MP MAYBE, a big MAYBE but it's still got to be TBS for Civ 3!

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      • #4
        quote:

        Originally posted by UltraSonix on 12-03-2000 05:57 AM
        Sounds very good - but just one question - how would this work?


        That option is infact a lazy-man "just mangle them" button alternative. The attack is not optimized to be the best, but sometimes it can be useful then your modern big tank-army confronts any pathetic ancient mini-army. You dont want to waste time micro-managing those attacks, because your advantage is so ridicously huge anyway.

        So you just click that "just mangle them" button, and quickly move on.

        quote:

        Does this have each attacking unit take on every other unit in the opposing stack, or is it each attacking unit is designated a particular unit in the other stack?


        Each indevidual unit can be designated to attack any particular unit in that other stack. You have complete freedom. You can designate half of your stack to simultaneously attack a singled out unit in that enemy-stack. Each of them take turns in attacking that poor single unit.
        "Simultaneously" actually means one-after-the-other against that same target, within that same game-turn.

        A single unit cannot however, attack simultaneously two or more units in that other stack. A single unit can only attack another single unit, regardless of that enemy-unit is alone, or within a stack.

        Because no unit can both attack and fortify (or retreat) at the same time, a single unit has big disadvantage when being attacked by a stack of enemy-units. While that single unit perhaps easily can crush any picked out unit in that other stack, he cannot at the same time fortify himself against the attacks from those other units in that same enemy-stack.

        (And this why it must be a significant attack/defence difference between ancient and modern units. Nobody wants that CTP problem of ancient stack of attackers killing a single modern unit, all over again. They have to be pretty plentiful if they do).

        The tactical problem here (that adds to the excitment) is, that you dont know how the enemy-stack is going to use hes units to attack yours. You can never see the other sides battle-plans, if you gets attacked.
        If that happens the battle-screen pops up automatically, then (after 1-5 seconds) the AI tells you that his battle-plans has now been secretly schemed out. You must now try to anticipate hes moves - come up with "educated guesses", and then design your own attacks, fortifys or retreats accordingly.

        Only then you click that "Resolve battle" button, the enemy battle-plans become visible for a short while together with your own, before the battle actually resolves - and by then its to late to do anything about misjudged battle-plans, of course.

        There are room for several shrewd tactical considerations here (and much room for embarrassing mistakes too - below is some of them):

        - You perhaps designate many units to attack those 2-3 enemy-units, that you believed should attack you - but instead choose to retreat. At the same time; those units that you didnt believe should attack you, actually did so.

        - You perhaps designate to many units to attack any single enemy unit. Then that unit gets killed long before all of your units gets a chance to attack him. The result is that these remaing units gets "unemployed" that turn - you didnt use your army effectively enough.

        The whole idea with above combat-model is to try to catch some of that historical real-life battle-tactical moment of uncertainty - just before the battle actually begins - before those equally big and equally advanced armys clash together.

        Too many times i have felt like USA agains Saddam then playing Civ - in theory (counting tanks) the enemy-army seemed strong enough, but in reality US/the human player´s tactical and strategical battlefield-advantage is too big. This result is easy and foreseeable outcomes.
        Well, that was perhaps a good thing then dealing with Saddam, but then dealing with the AI-armies, i want some of that uncertainty back. What do you guys think.

        quote:

        And this systesm allows the defenders to always respond - perhaps in some situations/terrains they can be considered to have been ambushed and should not be allowed to attack back or perhaps even fortify.


        That is maybe a problem - but remember: we are not talking "skirmishes" here. Gerilla warfare is relatively new invention, and mostly a domestical third world problem. In a Civ-game, its all about real international wars isnt it? You aganst this or that empire, or vice-verse. Also: For most part of our history battles took place out in the open. Gerilla-warfare have been consided "unmanly" for long periods of time.

        Besides that, the attacked army/city battle-terrain is taken into account, just as in Civ-2

        -----------------------------------------------------
        CORNMASTER:

        Well, I have played Deadlock also. I cannot say i remember the game exactly, but it was defenitly not the same thing as the combat-model in RISK-II, and the one im trying to describe above.

        [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 04, 2000).]

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        • #5
          About every other month I post a suggestion to look at other games for Civ III such as Imperialism. Simultaneous combat, market-based economy, ect.

          What do you think of 'strategy cards' like in Risk II??
          "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
          "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
          "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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          • #6
            quote:

            Originally posted by Seeker on 12-03-2000 03:20 PM
            What do you think of 'strategy cards' like in Risk II??


            Strategy-cards means that new fresh units pops up from nowhere, and that make sense in an extremly simplified boardgame like Risk II, there all the units are dealed out for free each turn, depending on the battle-luck.
            But, in Civ-games all the units is laboriously produced - and because of this the very idea of "Civ strategy cards" is totally incompatible. How could Firaxis possible implement this without the players feeling heavily cheated, then a bunch of units suddenly is beamed down to any AI-civ (or the human player), from nowhere?

            My idea is to implement certain battle resolving elements in its principal form, from Risk II, and then adjust and adapt those principal ideas to the Civ-3 enviroment. It was never to crudely "transplant" the whole Risk II game into Civ-3.

            By the way: Nothing in my first and second post is "carved in stone" in any way. Maybe some of the rules can be tweaked a little better? Im open for any suggestions (although i might not agree, of course).

            Also remember: In Civ-2, the player could choose "simplyfied combat" (= Civ-1 style) under the pre-game options > customized rules. I hope that Firaxis leaves a "backdoor" open in Civ-3 as well (perhaps a unit-stackable version of the Civ-2 combat rules?).

            [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 03, 2000).]

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            • #7
              Well, the idea seems sound, except for the fact the it's a deviating a little from the usual TBS, but some people here have said that they'd like that...

              ------------------
              No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)
              No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)

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              • #8
                No, not the reinforcement cards I meant the strategy cards. Before every battle in risk II the AI and human commanders select a strategy (ambush, attack left flank, ect.)
                "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
                "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
                "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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                • #9
                  quote:

                  Originally posted by Seeker on 12-03-2000 07:32 PM
                  Before every battle in risk II the AI and human commanders select a strategy (ambush, attack left flank, ect.)


                  Oops! My mistake, You quite right, Seeker. What i was describing was reinforcement-cards.

                  However, im not 100% sure what your hinting at, in above quote. I have to reinstall the game from a left-over copy, in order to check that one out. I never played "turnbased" - only "simultaneous".

                  Anyway, i think that i got most of the idea covered in my second post above. The only significant difference is that in Risk II any army (= unit) could split-up its attacks against many enemy-armies.
                  In above Civ-adaped version any single unit (wherever its alone, or within a stack) can only attack another single unit (wherever that enemy-unit is alone, or within that stack).

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                  • #10
                    More reactions needed!

                    Even negative ones - it doesnt matter, as long as the negative ones are seriously argumented.

                    I realize that im biased here, but i really think this particular idea is one of the better ones i have had lately - its simply too good to be buried just after 8-9 posts. My first and second post explains it all.

                    I cant help wonder if that comparison with RISK II was a mistake - people perhaps get the wrong ideas. In my Civ-adapted variant of it, the a battle between two stacked armies is over within a few of seconds, ones you hit the "Resolve battle" button. Its not intend to be near as time-consuming as the dice-rolling Risk-II variant of it. The chance-element is also excluded, or at least not more appearent then in Civ-2/SMAC-battles.

                    Also, an added bonus:

                    With this combat-model you cannot cheat as easily by just reloading the previous turn. The reason is the "uncertanty-factor", explaned in my second post.

                    [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 05, 2000).]

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                    • #11
                      quote:

                      Originally posted by Stuff2 on 12-07-2000 12:45 PM
                      1. It's hard enough getting a decent AI as it is, with this idea it's impossible to get it. (Unless the ai always does the same thing or randomly organize it's troops, but then again the idea will loose it's point.)


                      The BIG programming-problem revolves around how to simultaneously and succesfully guide multiple AI-units on generated unknown maps. In this respect its much better to concentrate all empire-attacking AI-units (for that indevidual AI-civ) in 1-3 unit-stacks, and then try to guide those few stacks, instead of take on the hopeless challenge of guiding 10-20+ indevidual AI-units against the same objective. The AI still uses some indevidual military units although, but mainly for simple border patrol duties.

                      The programmers dont have to be so nitty-gritty about how these units (from different cities within that AI-empire) should build up the stack.
                      They just have to choose a build-up spot directly outside a friendly city closest to the empire they want to attack. Whenever a additional "objective: empire-attack" AI-unit is produced in any city; that unit is automatically "zapped" onto that growing stack, after a couple of turns (= the delay can mimic the bird-journey between the unit-producing city and the border-city with the build-up stack). If that AI-delay is necessary, that is - i dont think so.

                      Once that AI unit-stack bumbs into a Human city/unit-stack it becomes easier then the Civ-2 variant. The reason for this is that the attacking stack and the attacked stack is concentrated on only two cordinates, directly next to each other (Infact, Firaxis should consider making it a global Civ-3 rule that only unit-stacks can attack city-walled cities. This way, the programmers can concentrate on how to deal with those few human player-stacks, instead of buckloads of indevidual land-units. Perhaps the same could apply to sea- and air-units, i dont know).

                      About the problems of which stacked AI-unit/units should attack which stacked enemy-units: well, i understand your concerns. But, also remember; the programmers knows exactly the factors here. They know exactly which units can do what - and because all human units are pinned down to the same stack, next to their own AI-stack - they also now exactly in which map-square the human player enemy is.
                      Also, remember that all units are considered "first-liners", which means any unit can attack any similar type unit, regardless of position in the stack. Organizing units in positions becomes totally irrelevant = easier for the AI.

                      Finally: this model can be simplified in order to make the whole process more AI-friendly. The retreat-alternative can be scrapped - the programmers can then concentrate on the attack and fortify-alternatives only. Its then only a matter of making (txt-file edit-able) guidelines; principal rules on how units in AI-stacks should behave then dealing with differently sized and differently comprised enemy-stacks.

                      Calculating complex combinations of attacking and fortifying units, and then calculating the outcomes is one thing our speedy PC-processors can do with ease.


                      quote:

                      2. Lategame will mean a heck of alot micromanagement. I personally think that civ2 have more than enough of units in the latter stages.


                      The micro-management becomes less with fewer big stacks instead of many indevidual units. Also; ask yourself: Which is faster?

                      1/ Choose and then order 8-10 units within a stack to attack 8-10 enemy-units within another stack, then look at ONE battle.

                      2/ Choose and then order one unit to attack one enemy-unit, then look at one battle - then choose/order the 2:nd unit to attack the 2:nd enemy-unit, then look at the 2:nd battle ... and so on, all the way up to 8-10 units and battles.


                      quote:

                      The solution is called automation.


                      As i wrote in one previous post: once you hit the resolve battle button, the computer quickly resolves it within 1-5 seconds depending on the size of the battle. No RISK-style dice-animations, rest assured.

                      Also remember (again): In Civ-2, the player could choose "simplyfied combat" (= Civ-1 style) under the pre-game options > customized rules. I hope that Firaxis leaves a "backdoor" open in Civ-3 as well (perhaps a unit-stackable version of the Civ-2 combat rules?).

                      [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 07, 2000).]

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                      • #12
                        quote:

                        Originally posted by Ralf on 12-07-2000 03:53 PMAlso remember (again): In Civ-2, the player could choose "simplyfied combat" (= Civ-1 style) under the pre-game options > customized rules. I hope that Firaxis leaves a "backdoor" open in Civ-3 as well (perhaps a unit-stackable version of the Civ-2 combat rules?).

                        [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 07, 2000).]


                        If this combat style is implemented, I'd prefer the simplied combat to be Civ2 style, which I still prefer to all the other battle proposals I've seen.

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                        • #13
                          Ralf,

                          Simultaneous combat works only if movement is also simultaneous. In Risk II, when everything is combat, it doesn't matter. However, there's a lot more to Civ than just fight, fight, fight (though some of you might disagree .

                          This would change the entire nature of the game. It's also hard to resolve movement this way. For example, say one of your units move out from hex H while one of my units move into it. Will there be a combat? Who gets to move first? You or I?
                          [This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited December 07, 2000).]
                          (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
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                          • #14
                            quote:

                            Originally posted by OreoFuchi on 12-07-2000 07:27 PM
                            If this combat style is implemented, I'd prefer the simplied combat to be Civ2 style, which I still prefer to all the other battle proposals I've seen.


                            I agree, I like Civ2's battle system the best, in terms of simultanious vs. non-simultanious (but ranged attacks sould be implemented: a knight would never be able to touch a museteer, simply because the musketeer would blow him off his hourse before the knight could get to him).
                            I don't have much to say 'cause I won't be here long.

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                            • #15
                              In a way i like this idea, but i see two major problems with it.

                              1. It's hard enough getting a decent AI as it is, with this idea it's impossible to get it. (Unless the ai always does the same thing or randomly organize it's troops, but then again the idea will loose it's point.)

                              2. Lategame will mean a heck of alot micromanagement. I personally think that civ2 have more than enough of units in the latter stages.

                              The solution is called automation. Also, make it possible to retreat if a unit is doing bad in a battle.

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