New Governments

[DarkCloud]

What type of governments would you like In Civ III and what effects might they have.
Here is a basic list (without effects yet)
-Despotism
-Tribal (New!)
-City-State (New!)
-Monarchy
-Feudal (New!)
-Theocracy (New!)
-Communism
-Fascism
-Socialism (New!)
-Republic
-Democracy
-Market (New!)


-What efects should these have?

[DarkCloud]

Effectiveness Ratings 0-100%
They also have other special bonuses; but I cannot think of those yet.

Despotism-
Tax Collecting- 50% (taxes)
War- 100% (unhappy by war)
Infastructure- 20% (production)
Happiness- 25%

Tribal-
Tax Collecting- 25%
War- 50%
Infastructure- 75%
Happiness- 100%

City State-
Tax Collecting- 50%
War- 25%
Infastructure- 100%
Happiness- 75%

Monarchy-
Tax Collecting- 75%
War- 75%
Infastructure- 40%
Happiness- 40%

Feudal-
Tax Collecting- 50%
War- 100%
Infastructure- 30%
Happiness- 30%

Theocracy-
Tax Collecting- 40%
War- 40%
Infastructure- 50%
Happiness- 70%

Communism-
Tax Collecting- 100%
War- 50%
Infastructure- 30%
Happiness- 30%

Fascism-
Tax Collecting- 75%
War- 100%
Infastructure- 40%
Happiness- 20%

Socialism-
Tax Collecting- 75%
War- 60%
Infastructure- 40%
Happiness- 40%

Socialism-
Tax Collecting- 75%
War- 60%
Infastructure- 40%
Happiness- 40%

Republic-
Tax Collecting- 75%
War- 40%
Infastructure- 50%
Happiness- 60%

Democracy-
Tax Collecting- 85%
War- 55%
Infastructure- 60%
Happiness- 80%

Market- *Most advanced form of Government
Tax Collecting- 100%
War- 60%
Infastructure- 75%
Happiness- 85%

[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited November 23, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

Hmm... I think I would add a "true democracy" in the sense that citizens could vote for any bill and the middlemen known as "representatives" could be squeezed out. City-state isn't really a form of government, it was a type of state that could have had many different governments (i.e. Sparta's double monarchy, Athens democracy, etc.)

If we were also doning a bit into the future, a "Hive Mind" government could also work. I must be watching too much Star Trek...

[Dauphin]

quote: If we were also doning a bit into the future, a "Hive Mind" government could also work. I must be watching too much Star Trek...

Isn't that the same as your true democracy.

[Biddles]

I assume that you aren't separating economic systems: That your using a Civ1/Civ2 style government system.

How does:
-socialism differ from communism
-feudalism differ from monarchy
-tribalism differ from despotism
In the game sense. I know that in real life these systems may differ in some respects, but how do you represent that in the game.

Personally I prefer social engineering.

[Shadowstrike]

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch on 11-22-2000 07:04 PM Isn't that the same as your true democracy.

No. In a True Democracy, people can vote and choose as they want, with their own free will. In a Hive Mind, there is a central computer, which decides what each person (stripped of all personality, et al) will do at every moment (i.e. no free will)

[UltraSonix]

quote: -Despotism -Tribal (New!) -City-State (New!) -Monarchy -Feudal (New!) -Theocracy (New!) -Communism -Fascism -Socialism (New!) -Republic -Democracy -Market (New!)

I'm not an expert on this sort of stuff but here goes...

"Tribal" should be the form of government for civs less advanced than the starting civ2 civs - it would be the "government" of the nomadic tribes idea that some people here like.

"Feudal" would be a very specific type of government that reduce efficiency a lot (the peasants each manage a small lot of land) , and yet at the same time allow cavalry/infantry units to be more easily built. Under this, a castle improvement could be built for more cheaply (it would allow for perhaps defence bonuses against non-gunpowder units). Taxes would be harder to collect, but there would be less unhappy people.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)

[Snapcase's Temporary DL]

quote: -socialism differ from communism

In realistic in-game terms (ie. how the two are percieved in R/L): Socialism is a "milder" form of communism, in that it still retains some of the features of the democracy (more freedoms, less autocratic control). A "compromise"-type government for those who want a clean, easy government type without major drawbacks.

In idealistic in-game terms (ie. how the "pure" marxist would view the two concepts): Socialism is the government which is now designated communism. Communism is an ideal stateless world in which either (according to Marx) no politics exist, or (according to Trotsky) only very superficial politics exist. Leadership would therefore be removed, and your entire existance will cease to be important. Everyone lives in a perfect paradise world. You've won the game!

I suspect FIRAXIS would not be overly thrilled at the second version. Still, it'd be interesting to make a mod for civ which completely follows the Marxist model of historical development...

[Zer0_T0lerance]

quote: "Tribal" should be the form of government for civs less advanced than the starting civ2 civs - it would be the "government" of the nomadic tribes idea that some people here like.

I like this idea.

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Zero (formerly jrhughes98)

[Christantine The Great]

quote: feudalism differ from monarchy

Feudalism is really an economic system where feudal lords own vast tracts of land that were farmed, for free, by serfs. Since creature comforts were kept at a minimum (for the peasants) and the huge numbers of "free" workers to conscript from it would allow you to build a large army. Of course since the peasants could only work the lord's crops and not their own, and the occasional plague, would lower efficiency a whole lot.

The rest of the list looks great except for city-state and market. In a city-state you would either find a true democracy or some kind of monarchy, nothing else really since the era of city-states is well far behind us. I assume market would lean towards something like the Morganic faction of SMAC. This could be a economic system, though.

Would "tribal" be where everybody reports to "Big Chief"?

[DarkCloud]

Shadowstrike-

A true democracy is a good idea.


-Socialism- Like in Scandinavia and Great Britain
-Communism- Like in China, North Korea
-Tribalism- 'Pure Communism' of the Native Americans (Only good for states under 15 population)
-Feudalism- Like in the Ancient Chinese states (The king has less power than in a Monarchy. The vassals are near-rivals and have almost as much power as the king, as opposed to the king having Absolute power.)

[Tical_2000]

A true democracy sounds unnatural and strange. How could every person in a nation vote for every bill? Things would never get done. I think a true democracy would be less productive than a despotism. Can someone please explain to me the concept of social engineering so I can perhaps formulate my own opinions on it? Thanx.

[JamesJKirk]

I think a "true" Marxist would only view the Soviet system as a dictatorship than any sort of socialist ideal. Socialism is economic control by the people, ie workers, not the government. "Marxism" was well warped into being a sort of catchall economic and political revolution by the end of the 19th century, whereas in reality, The workers of an industry would control that industry, and the entire of a society would have equal control over the political system. The Soviet system was I guess Socialist in an economic sense, but not in a real sense, since socialism implies equality and justice, which were limited. in the "true" sence, since "true" forms of govenrment seems to be the theme here. I suppose in a very broad sense, the stated goal of the USSR was to guide society into a classless system, and it dubbed itself socialist, but aside from the welfare state benefits, it was just a dictatorship. I would think Socialism government would be akin to Sweden, or other more moderate european democracies, still the difference lies in economics not politics. But what I wonder why would "Market" be the most advanced government? Should people strive toward cooperation rather than petty competition? Hasn't the Gilded Age taught you all anything?

Darkcloud- UK and Scandinavia are democracies, aside from health care, that UK economy isn't much more socialize that that of the US- the political systems are similar, although Europe tends to follow a parliamentary system, and the US has a presidential system. Big whoop, people still vote for representatives, etc etc. And I think it's established most gov't functions will be replaced by Social Engineering. Perhaps, maybe even hopefully, we can have a basic government shell and control the SE of that gov't. It would allow popular revolutions, while letting the player control the specifics.

Tical- Haven't you heard of the Athenian Democracy? It was a true democracy, sort of, all of the male citizens could vote on every bill, so it's been done, it would have to work in a small nation, unless it were done electronically how CTP suggests. Social Engineering is the ability of the player to select the type of economy, social structure, etc etc of a tribe, play SMAC doing it explains it better than me telling you.

[Shogun Gunner]

There are no examples in our history of a true communist government on a country level. It's agreed by most people that there is a separation of economic systems and government systems. This should be addressed in Civ III.

[Christantine The Great]

With the internet a true (pure) democracy is possible. And I would like to point out an important fact. There are NO ACTUAL democracies functioning on this earth today! There are republics (France), democratic republics (U.S.A.), constitutional monarchies (U.K.), monarchies (Netherlands(?)), theocratic "republics" (Most Arab nations), dictatorships (Iraq), and communist dictatorships (China) but NO democracies. (Ok, I may have left out some governments but do you get the point?)

Socialism and Communism are not governments but economy models. They are usually enforced by dictatorships (Which should be on the list!)

I hope I'm not sounding too pushy.