Top 10 of new tech

[wernazuma]

yes, Fascism is needed.
I'd suggest Mass Production and Communism as prerequisites.
Fascism was anti-communist but had communist elements and it is certainly a child of a society with mass production.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Evil Capitalist on 09-15-2000 09:32 AM Another one that is needed- Classical music. This could give access to things like JS Bach's Cathedral, rather than theology. Also 'Opera house' (This is a very important 19th century improvement that could decline with the advent of television).

The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

If a case could be made for a music wonder in civ III,
I think it would have to be "Woodstock".

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 09-16-2000 03:53 AM Definetly need Fascism! I don't know what leads to it (maybe automobile and Liberalism - it did blossom from anti-liberalism) and what comes off of it.

I never saw Fascism described as blossom before !
Anyway, it comes from despair, and brings nothing but trouble. Compared to Socialism and Liberalism it has little content - basically it is just a form of dictatorship - and has played only a minor part in the history of human civilization. It is represented in Civ II by the toppling of a democratic government.



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Evil Capitalist]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-16-2000 10:18 AM The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

How about every happy citizen (Who we'll just assume is a rich, middle class citizen with cultured tendencies) produces 1 gold/turn. In fact we could extend the concept and make the stadium produce e.g. 1 gold per content citizen.

*Waits for everyone to call him a snob*

[Ribannah]

* BUMP *

So far nobody has seriously challenged my top 10!
Does that mean you all agree?

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[wernazuma]

OK, you wanted a challenge. Some of those techs I suggest are almost identic with yours, but OK, here I go:
1. Mechanics
simply replaces Invention, I don't like that name.
2. Printing Press
prereqs: Literacy, Mechanics
leads to: Bureaucracy, Modern Science
3. Mercantilism
prereqs: Feudalism, Banking (I have the german version, don't know how this is really named)
leads to: Industrialization, Economy
4. Nationalism
prereqs: Mercantilism, Feudalism
leads to: Conscription
5. Bureaucracy
prereqs: Printing Press, Mercantilism
leads to: Industrialization, Conscription
6. Modern Science
prereqs: Printing Press, University
leads to: Chemistry, ToG, Pharmaceutics
7. Pharmaceutics
prereqs: Modern Science, Medicine
leads to: GE
8. Electronic Warfare
prereqs: Mobile Warfare, Computer
leads to: Stealth Technic
9. Leisure Industry
prereqs: Mass Media, Democracy
leads to: nothing
10. Mass Media
prereqs: Radio, Mass Production
leads to: Leisure Industry

Sorry, I'm too busy now to point out effects or why I decided for which prereqs, if there are questions I'll become more detailed.

[DarkCloud]

Hey. I challenged them... did you read my ideas?

[Ribannah]

[quote]Originally posted by wernazuma on 09-29-2000 03:32 PM
OK, you wanted a challenge. Some of those techs I suggest are almost identic with yours, but OK, here I go:[/quote}

Finally! Thank you, Wernazuma. Cool list, but some comments.

1. Mechanics
> simply replaces Invention, I don't like that name.

Good point, there has always been invention after all. A replacement shouldn't count as a slot though, so you can have another pick

3. Mercantilism
I'm hesitant about adding another economics tech, I don't think this gives much extra over Economics and The Corporation.

4. Nationalism
This is a good one, almost made my own cut but I could not drop Socialism or Liberalism. Maybe it could simply replace Conscription, which is not much of an "advance" IMHO.

5. Bureaucracy
Hehe, this is certainly no advance, but going backwards! It is represented in Civ II by Corruption.

6. Modern Science
This needs some explanation.

8. Electronic Warfare
Hmm, in my a possible alternative to Stealth, which has been much overrated. Can't see how it LEADS to Stealth. A unit for this tech: the Apache Helicopter.
One drawback though, an overlap with Rocketry.

9. Leisure Industry
> leads to: nothing

Great insight
Problem is, there has been leisure industry since the dawn of human civilization, so I don't see where it would fit in.

10. Mass Media
Alternative to my "Telecommunication", which I prefer since it's broader and easier to place in the tech tree.

Thanks again! I'm working on a complete tech tree now and your ideas have certainly helped.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

Darkcloud, some comments:

*Bartering
I see no difference with Trade.

*School
A City Improvement, rather than a tech. To go with Philosophy.

*Wood Carving
This is supposed to be known by all beginning civs

>Well then, I think at min the new game should include 10 new techs and at max it should contain 25 new techs.

That is why you made no challenge! We're talking about the Top 10 here, there could me more than 10 new ones in total.

*Advanced Hull Making
Can't see this as a major advance. Where in the tree?

*Police State
A form of (improved?) dictatorship. Could be a government type to go with Nationalism.

*-Fishing Boat (U)
*-Fishing Nets (T)
Supposed to be known at the start. Comes way before citybuilding!!


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-16-2000 10:18 AM The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music. If a case could be made for a music wonder in civ III, I think it would have to be "Woodstock".

Actually, during the 19 th century "classical music" was the music for the citizens. If you lived in a fairly big city at that time you where probably listening to classical music beacouse it was that periods 'pop'-music. On the other hand, most people did not live in the cities. And bye the end of that century many workers from the 'uncultivated' rural population had become a major part of the citizens bringing there own musical tradition with them. And then as classical music became more experimental and hard to understand the folk-music, and jazz took it's place as the music for the citizens. And we can see the same thing happen again in the fiftees, as jazz was starting to get experimental and hard to understand Elvis arrived with new music that was cool and yet simple.
But this was not my point, my point was that even though in a way the classical music hasn't been known bye anyone it has strongly influenced those people living in the cities, and during history it is the citizens who have played the biggest role. Farmers has ofcourse played a significant role but their role has almost been the same all the time. The cities has been the place where ideologies has been born. And it's in the cities most social and technologic progress has been made. On the other hand, classical music today has since long ago lost it power to spellbound the masses.
I'll give an example: Lizth (greatest pianist of the 19 th century). When he gave consertos women in the audiance fainted when they saw him, Paganini (greatest violinist of that period) was considered getting help from the devil when he played (he spellbounded his audiance and so did Lizth). They where actually that periods 'Pop-heroes'.
I think a city improvement called 'consert hall' or 'Opera house' could be included. And I am sure that in 50 years from now, pop and rock will be played in those places (and most of the youths will be listening to things that we are unable to imagine).
Classical music is just a label, in fact music has constantly changed both in function and expression since the dawn of history, the only difference with todays music is that the changes are faster (but maybe a listener from 2500 AD wont hear the difference from the sixtees rock or the ninethees discomusic).

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Stuff2 on 09-30-2000 09:46 AM Actually, during the 19 th century "classical music" was the music for the citizens. If you lived in a fairly big city at that time you where probably listening to classical music ...

How?



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Dienstag]

I think Stuff2 is refering to Franz Liszt (don't ask me how you pronounce that), above.

To anyone who says classical music has had little effect on civilization, I have 3 words: Star Wars soundtrack !

[SWPIGWANG The Second]

Modern Science = Scientific Method?

[Tiberius]

quote: Originally posted by Dienstag on 09-30-2000 12:02 PM I think Stuff2 is refering to Franz Liszt (don't ask me how you pronounce that), above.

You just simply pronounce Frantz List. Btw, "liszt" means wheat in hungarian

[DarkCloud]

Advanced Hull Making:

It comes from Ship Building (Advanced Caravel) which comes from: Navigation (Caravel and Magellans Expedition) and Map Making (Trieme and Lighthouse)

I once worked out a new tech chart until the year 2100 with improvements such as Laser Mounted Warfare and Genetic Discoveries.

I can list them if you like...