Where's all the farmers?

[Shadowstrike]

Hmmm... maybe we could have two types of citizens, educated ones and uneducated ones, generated when the city grows by the presence of a school of some sore (each type of school would give a percent of chance you get and educated person) and the educated person is a better urban dweller while the opposite is true for the udeducated serfs.

[Youngsun]

quote: The reason I say in 2-3 turns for each is within 2-3 years in the modern era or 20-30 years in the classical era a population can learn enough to be moderatly able scientists or taxmen and entertainers.

Looks alright for enterainers but scientists?

If Farmers/miners(rural pop) come to cities and get a job the most likely ones would be labourer/factory workers which has something to do with industrial production but not necessarily R&D outputs.

quote: Why? Isn't this hut just a small city?

No. The major difference between the hut and city comes from the establishment of central authority.

A hut under your civ's influence/protection pay tribute(possibly farm product/basic resource)to your govenment but you can not develop the hut unless you establish your authority there. It's like a nomad hut paying tribute to you. However a hut can tranform itself into a city without your intervention if circumstances allow it(massive influx of people)which may lead greater autonomy to the city.

quote: Besides, the rural population involves much more than just immigration and emigration from or to cities. It would also be natural growth of the rural population in each tile, expansion by the rural population to other tiles, and it would also involve population immigration from city to city as well. And also it can be assumed that the rural squares would just be lots of little villages and towns anyway.

Of course of course Did I say only city should be producing migrants? When I gave one example up there I assumed you would understand other aspects as well along with that. That's why I didn't make that very long because that's all about common sense.

quote: And in this hut theory, what happens when enemies take the towns? or do they? Would they have to establish authority in the same manner? By this logic, it could allow civs to "steal" other civ's cities without so much as a shot fired or a dime spent,

Throughout history that has been the fate of all the border towns by swithing their loyalty to one civ to another based on whose military presence is stonger. Why are you so confused about cities and huts? Both icons or whatever represent human inhabitants on a specific tile for urban pop(city) and rural pop(hut). If you are so weak to protect your border towns you loose them. Isn't that a commonsense? Cities are too important so there would be garrisons and walls for better protection. Huts do not equally compensate the military expense for the garrisons as cities do so you might be discouraged to protect all huts but possibly building a fort around 4~5 huts so they gives reasonable return on investement.

quote: if the hut should randomly appear in some far-flung location that is closer to an opponent, it could be a very real possibility. Not to mention that should the hut appear on a mountain top, it would be useless for anything other than defense.

When I said random that means the best possible/better choice made by AI following the behaviour similar to that of AI controlled civ in CivII not just anywhere.

quote: Actually, I think Brasilia just goes to show how ineffective such government regulation would be

Well even sounds better because in the game both failure & success should be represented by how you plan.

quote: So, I think that it would be more interesting just to make it possible for a large immigration to just throw a monkey wrench right into your nice public works. That way you have to remedy the problem by building a Temple or Cathedral. Actually if they put "overcrowding" like in CtP in the game, you could require Apartment buildings or Hospitals to remedy the problem.

Exactly. Overcrowding should be there.

quote: Meanwhile, as for this tile worker micromanagement in the city, I have no comment. I really have no objections to the old system, and I probably wouldn't object to a new one either.

As long as we have present system of city tile management, we never gonna able to introduce class differentiation, Urban/Rural pop, realistic industry representation. The current system involves full of problems and isn't that our duty to detect a problem and to solve for better CivIII?

quote: we could have two types of citizens, educated ones and uneducated ones,

Good suggestion Shadowstrike! please visit my corporation thread which covers that area in detailed fashion
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited September 08, 2000).]

[Hannibal3]

Thanks, Youngsun, I really just wanted a little clarity on your idea. Sorry for the nit-picking of the plan. I just was not sure what exactly your plan was. One more question: Do you wnat a population in every square or only in huts and cities?

And I think that the best thing would be to have huts gravitating toward areas with strong resources available. It makes it more realistic.

And Youngsun, I also checked out your thread on corporations. It is an interesting concept. I think I might just join in on the city functions discussion if we bring corporations into play.

And here is my vision of the rural population which would be some sort of special view here. Switch it on to see rural progress, otherwise population growth out of cities is invisible.



[This message has been edited by Hannibal3 (edited September 11, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Hannibal3 (edited September 11, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

No need to be sorry about. I undertand limited info. can bring frustration/misunderstanding.

Would you like to see some of my ideas represented on "get rid of 21 squares" thread

Villages can be replaced by huts.

Tell me what you think so we can make a compromise.

[Hannibal3]

Ok. Well, this is going to be complicated… but I'll try to explain. I have a plan that ties in city populations, rural populations, infrastructure, trade, and corporations. I have to do this in sections given its huge size. Youngsun, I want your help with this too, supporting or criticizing…



PART I: CHANGES IN CITIES

Let's start with my fundamental changes. I want to get rid of "Production". After all, what is production? It's not really anything. So instead, I want a Laborforce in its place. It is responsible for the construction of Wondows and Improvement. It is essentially the "Production" in that respect, and it would be based entirely on population. Improvements like Industrial Farms increases the Labor Force, and Factories decrease required Man Hours to complete a structure. I'll explain units later. And when Factories and other industrial buildings are constructed, a point of Labor is taken to work those facilities.

There will also be a Educated Laborforce. It is determined by the Upper and Middle class population, it is increased by the construction of a Public School. For every point that increases here, it decreases from the regular Laborforce. The two always balance. And when a building like a Bank, Library, PS, etc. is constructed, one point is set aside for this.

Also, Trade is gone. Again, "Trade". What is it? It will have a vastly superior replacement. So Research, and Taxes will be based on other things. Taxes are determined by the city's population and what kind of population… (rich, middle class, poor), the number of banks markets etc., and luxury commodities. Research is determined by setting aside funds for research in particular fields of interest that is affected by the number of Labs, Libraries, etc.

Also, Food and Surplus are out. Instead it will be Death Rate and Birth Rate. Really just a change in name. Anyway, the Death Rate decreases through Hospitals and Apartments, Sewers, and Mass Transit, and the Birth Rate increases inversely with this. Immigration will also affect the population, but that goes with the rural population.

The classes are determined by A) luxury commodities (Sugar, Jewels, Clothes, Cars, etc.) B) the number of financial and social improvements C) all immigration will be lower class. So Lower Class must be appeased in the same way as always in Civ. The middle class are kept happy by maintaining their standard of living, and disgruntled middle class people causes disorder. The upper-class is maintained in the same way as the middle-class, but since an upper class revolt would probably lead to a coup that would depose you, the best thing is to just have them leave thereby decreasing the amount of literate people.

[Hannibal3]

PART II: THE RURAL PEOPLE

Ok, so here's where we integrate the rural population. Ok, cities do not have anything to do with food production EXCEPT for fishing. Otherwise, independently acting populations in rural squares that begin to appear outside the city develop the land and ship their goods back to the nearest city. They can do this WITHOUT roads within the famous 21 squares. Beyond that they need roads to ship it that far. So roads therefore will naturally increase the population of any rural square faster than others. Settlers construct roads but do not build farms.

But these rural peoples do much more than that… They also gather resources at resource tiles that are used for trading. Again, the 21-tile rules applies without roads. Rural tiles send a small portion of a commodities and food each turn to the city per turn. With roads, they send more. With canals & rivers, they send even more, and with railroads they send the most on land. They can send the most by sea. This also applies to city-city trading.

Commodities are needed for constructing Units, Wonders, and Improvements and supplying units in hostile territory. To build Cavalry, you need a certain number of Horses in inventory whether imported from a foreign country or right from your backyard. Same thing for Elephants. Catapults and ships need large quantities of wood. And so on…

Now, it was always my intention that with the natural commodities in the game, there would be a number that would have to be manufactured. Pottery, Steel, Clothes, Cars, Tires, Refined Oil… These require Potters, Steel Mills, Textile Mills, Car Plants, Factories, and Oil Refineries built in the cities to convert raw materials (Clay, Iron, Cotton, Steel & Tires, Rubber, Crude Oil). Now, you can: A) build these as you see fit, or….

[Hannibal3]

PART III: THE CORPORATIONS

B) charter a corporation for each field by going into the Economic Ministry in the menu.

With this, you provide subsidies, and the corporations automatically construct these improvements in cities that can handle them (Laborforce) and have in-coming supplies of raw materials. They build these structures with no cost to you. Then you direct where the exports go. Also, a railroad corporation can be chartered which with land grants will automatically construct railroads on those tiles you grant to them. The down side is that you can move your units and goods on these rails, but you can not build cities or military structures since it is not public land anymore. Other corporations will also put pressures on you for expansion to new resources and will reak political havoc generally increasing corruption.

PART IV: THE UNITS

Units are not produced. Instead, with various city improvements like Military Base, Stables, Shipwright, Weaponsmith, and Factory, they are purchased from a Ministry window that can be accessed from the menu. It calls for cities with bases to train a certain number of new infantry units, or cities with other features to construct or train siege weapons, calvary, and mechanized weapons like tanks and bombers. It costs money and one turn to produce these things.

Each city improvement allows one of each unit type. So more than one can be constructed in each city. The Defense Ministry will contract those cities with the most to put your orders through. It will not do this if there is an insufficient supply of the commodities needed for the units. Or you can do it city by city in places where you want a specific city to build something (i.e. defense units in a far-flung city).

[Youngsun]

You've been working hard.

I have an important assignment due on next week so comprehensive reply can't be made this time sorry.

will be back within 7 days....

[Hannibal3]

*Bump!*

Hey, c'mon guys, this isn't a 2-person thread. I've expanded to much more topics than rural pop, gimme some feed back here

------------------
"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

[Urban Ranger]

My suggestion is: look at the archives. There used to be quite a bit of discussions on these sorts of topics.

Will look at your proposals harder

[Urban Ranger]

Hannibal3,

"After all, what is production? It's not really anything."

What? Production is an abstract representation of the industrial capacities of the city in question.

"There will also be a Educated Laborforce."

Okay, what's the difference?

""Trade". What is it?"

Huh? Trade is the amount of revenues generated through trading. How hard is that?

"It will have a vastly superior replacement."

What might that be?

"Taxes are determined by the city's population and what kind of population? (rich, middle class, poor)"

How do you determine what kind of population are there? How do you improve the poor class to middle class, say? Will it not involve more micromanagement?

"Food and Surplus are out. Instead it will be Death Rate and Birth Rate. Really just a change in name."

No, because you can build caravans to send surplus food. That makes sense. Sending "birth rate" doesn't.

"all immigration will be lower class"

That doesn't make sense though

"The upper-class is maintained in the same way as the middle-class, but since an upper class revolt would probably lead to a coup that would depose you"

Unlikely, since the player is a god, not mere mortal

"the best thing is to just have them leave thereby decreasing the amount of literate people"

This is not necessarily the case. Since in any society the size of upper class is small. What's a few hundred people leaving for a city of millions?

[Hannibal3]

Urban Ranger, here is my response.....

quote: ""Trade". What is it?" Huh? Trade is the amount of revenues generated through trading. How hard is that?

rhetorical question - a question asked only for effect, as to emphasize a point, no answer being expected.

- Webster's New World Dictionary

quote: "After all, what is production? It's not really anything." What? Production is an abstract representation of the industrial capacities of the city in question.

The fact is that production is as you youself said "abstract". I propose to eliminate that by making a real labor force that uses the resources a city has.

And apparently you decided to skip the whole mid-section of the proposal because I explained there about the trade system of the game under my concept. That was the superior form of trading I was talking about.

[QUOTE"Taxes are determined by the city's population and what kind of population? (rich, middle class,
poor)"

How do you determine what kind of population are there?[/QUOTE]

Ok, apparently somebody decided not to read again. I stated that in the proposal, so I won't bother to dignify that with an answer.

However, your next question was a good one. The Public Schools will be one way to bring the poor to middle class. Also the amount of trading the city is doing will move them up, but each time that happens, the laborforce drops as the educated laborforce increases. And no it won't involve even more micromanagement because you will be doing these things anyway.

quote: "Food and Surplus are out. Instead it will be Death Rate and Birth Rate. Really just a change in name." No, because you can build caravans to send surplus food. That makes sense. Sending "birth rate" doesn't.

Perhaps you youself should go check out old threads, friend. Caravans are not good and will not be in the game. The trade screen is the wave of the future. Obviously, Birth Rate would not be an available commodity with which to trade to other cities, but don't worry you can still trade food.

And it does make more sense to have Death/Birth rate because a city has natural growth due to a greater number of births than deaths. It does not grow simply by the existence of food. Food will be an issue of course but not in the current way.

quote: "The upper-class is maintained in the same way as the middle-class, but since an upper class revolt would probably lead to a coup that would depose you" Unlikely, since the player is a god, not mere mortal

Okay, so you just ran out of real quotes with which to bad mouth so you decided to fabricate your own. Alright...
You misconstrued that whole point and only put in part of the sentence. Had you put the whole sentence in it would be clear that it is not what I meant. What I said was that the since in real life that is what would happen, we can't have that happen in the game because otherwise it would just end the game.

quote: "all immigration will be lower class" That doesn't make sense though

quote: "the best thing is to just have them leave thereby decreasing the amount of literate people" This is not necessarily the case. Since in any society the size of upper class is small. What's a few hundred people leaving for a city of millions?

Look, you can't have it both ways. Either the upper class population is a real quantity in the cities or it isn't. What you basically said is that the upper class has a real value coming, but not when its going.


------------------
"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu
[This message has been edited by Hannibal3 (edited September 22, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Hannibal3 (edited September 22, 2000).]

[Dom Pedro II]

*MAJOR BUMP!*

I thought the new guys would like to read this. I am hoping I can resurrect this relatively neglected post. It was really a two-man conversation, but I want some fresh input.

[DarkCloud]

quote: quote: The reason I say in 2-3 turns for each is within 2-3 years in the modern era or 20-30 years in the classical era a population can learn enough to be moderatly able scientists or taxmen and entertainers. quote: Looks alright for enterainers but scientists?

The first quote was by me... the second by Youngsun.

For scientists you could have them 5-10 years in the modern era and 30-35 in the classical era.

Entertainers 1-3 years in modern era, or 10-15 in classical era.

Taxmen need no training
-
The children of these pioneers will be trained and brought up by their parents in the same ways and thus not have to go through a 'conversion' time.

[Dom Pedro II]

Sorry, DarkCloud. I didn't mean to suggest that NO ONE else contributed. I just meant that I was dissappointed by the original response because few people answered.