Question for the faithful--

[MiloMilo]

or unfaithful, depending on how you look at it. As the holidays roll around, I am thinking about making the fabled "switch" from pc to mac. Feel free to weigh in on the merits of this generally, but I also specifically want to know what this means in terms of civ3. No multiplayer? I can deal with that. No single-player PTW? Fine. But where is the mac version in terms of patches? Still way behind? Is it ever going to catch up? Etc. etc. Thanks folks.

M

[ChaotikVisions]

Oh my god, do those 'switch' commercials actually have a targetted audience? Whatever it is thats bothering you, don't do it. Ruining the rest of your life can't be worth whats happening right now...

Seriously, why would you bother to switch? Do you not play games that much, generally using the comptuer for basic stuff? I'd rethink changing, sticking with something that has more support and more programs coming out for it would be better. Just my thoughts, not really sure about the current state of the Mac version patches of Civ3.

[Nubclear]

Re: Question for the faithful--

Originally posted by MiloMilo
or unfaithful, depending on how you look at it. As the holidays roll around, I am thinking about making the fabled "switch" from pc to mac.

[lateralis]

unfortunately, this is just the type of bashing you must resign yourself to if you come over to the light side. But abuse notwithstanding, I highly recomend the switch. I've always been a mac user but my partner in business just switched about 6 months ago and he will never go back (his words).

The facts:

1. there are less games for the mac. this is just an unfortunate truism and will probably always be (unless the switch ads REALLY do their job. )

2. Almost everyone who switches ends up glad they did (I said almost everyone so don't flame me on this point I know there are some people who end up unhappy... but there are some people who like blood sausage too... )

3. Anything that can be done on a PC can be done on a mac, often times much better. desktop movies, music, cd burning, digital photos, dvd movies (watching and burning) can all be done on macs ususally a lot easier and intuitively.


In terms of patch parity, we're still a little behind, 1.21g right now, but we are assured that the 1.29 patch and editor are coming soon . I'm still waiting to see how the new commercial trait plays. And PTW is still in limbo. But I for one think you will be glad you did it if you switch. Our platform is SOOO much more fun and enjoyable to use. (and yes, I have used both, I still keep a 450 mHz win98 PC under my desk for connecting to gamespy so I can play halo online. But windoze XP just gets in your way to much!!)

for my money, it breaks down like this:

windoze tries to be intuitive and simple and all the rest. But it tries too hard and ends up screwing it up in the end.

Macintosh tries to be intuitive and simple and all the rest. And it is.

that's it, rant over.

lateralis

(get a mac!! you'll be glad you did!!)

[vmxa1]

A little behind? A patch (129f) that has been out quite awhile and an expansion pack.

[Nubclear]

unfortunately, this is just the type of bashing you must resign yourself to if you come over to the light side.

I've heard that before....But here in the state of Utah, they say that in refrence to the Church of Mormon.

[nbarclay]

The biggest thing that's never appealed to me about Apple (and this goes all the way back to the Apple II) is that they've always priced their machines a lot higher than the hardware justifies. They operate on a relatively low-volume, high profit margin business model, and that's very much at odds with my tendency toward being a cheapskate. It also has a lot to do with why relatively little software is written for Apple: the low-volume, high-margin marketing model doesn't give software publishers as large a customer base. Hence, keeping the Mac Civ 3 version up to date with the PC one isn't the highest of priorities.

Nathan

[WarpStorm]

OS X is a pretty damn good operating system, but you will suffer in the games department.

BTW, it has a cool screensaver I wrote called Flurry.

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by lateralis

In terms of patch parity, we're still a little behind, 1.21g right now, but we are assured that the 1.29 patch and editor are coming soon . ..... And PTW is still in limbo.

The editor is currently being built by Brad Oliver, and it will be delivered. The 1.29f patch has not been promised; however, I've Civ3 on a toshiba, patched to 1.29f, and I notice no significant differences. However, the additional stack movement features and the improved commercial trait would be nice to have.

In regards to games available for the mac, PC games w/ poor sales are not ported; therefore, most games you see ported to the mac are pretty good games. If its strategy you like, Virtual Programming is releasing Europa Universalis II and Legion in Q1/2003. These games are definitely on my short list for must-buy games. As fas as mac-only games, there aren't many planned. But, is this really important?

In regards to PC v. Mac platforms, I drive a Ford because I can afford it, but I'd rather have a BMW. Really though, its up to you. But, I really enjoy my Mac, and its three years old - still kickin' it! And, I don't have to worry about viruses, too much.

[Alex]

macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by Alexnm
macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

Warcraft 3 and Civ 3 are pretty popular. Since that is about all my computer gaming experience is limited to, I cant name any other good games.

Oh wait! Prince of Persia!!!

[EJDay]

Thinking about the switch? That's a heckuva leap. In advance, let me tell you: I'm writing this during a lull at work, from a Dell running NT...
1) Like everyone mentions, Macs have less games.
>>TRUE<<
OTOH, 98% of the games of out there suck. How much do you value your time?
* Macs usually have the better games ported over.
* It's a little more expensive and it's a little later... but Mac version are usually a little less buggy. When they port, they usually iron out a lot of the issues that plague WinTel machines. Sure, you don't get the immediate satisfaction of being able to swear at the crashes along with everyone else, but at the same time... you're not swearing at the crashes with everyone else.
2) Macs are, on average, more expensive.
>>TRUE<<
On the flip side, they have better standardization on the platform. You don't have reinstall the OS and 6 proprietary drivers just because you bought the newest killer app.
What money you spend above and beyond a comparable system from Dell (Dude), you'll save in man-hours keeping the machine operational. Break down what you think your time is worth, per hour. Remember that money comes and goes, but you can't buy time. Now, reweigh the argument.
3) WinTel is the de facto standard of the world.
>>TRUE<<
It's the industry standard. A proprietary industry standard. ...that will be charging out the wazoo for updates to keep the virus writers motivated.
OTOH, the Mac platform, OS X (pronounced "ten," of course), has a Unix base. The scientific and heavy industrial standard with a pretty slick interface on the top. OS X is also pretty flexable if you want to tweak it. It's got a healthy following and it's percentage will only continue to grow. It is a safe investment.

So, there you have it. BTW, maybe I should tell you: working all day on WinTel machines made my choice that much easier. When I go home (and post over at CFC), I'll be doing it on my Mac.

[ferretloverdc]

Originally posted by Alexnm
macs are cool. so cool that you can't play popular games on it...

Let's see.... I have these games on my Mac:

Warcraft 3
Civ 3
EV:Nova (great game, just now being ported to the PC)
The Sims
Diablo 2
Heroes 3 (4 coming soon)
MOO 2 (3 coming very soon)
Starcraft
SMAC
Baldur's Gate 2 (so I like RPGs - ok?)
Black & White (not my fav, but a fair game)

....so, what cool games am I missing? Personally, I rarely see a game out for PC that I really want that hasn't been ported to the Mac. It may take a little longer to get the games sometimes, but as has been mentioned, the Mac versions are usually less buggy in the process.

[ferretloverdc]

Originally posted by vmxa1
A little behind? A patch (129f) that has been out quite awhile and an expansion pack.

Yes, I think that qualifies as a little behind. After all, the 1.29f patch was the next released patch after 1.21f. The version number is semi-arbitrary, they change it to reflect how much has changed between the old patch and the new one. A few things changed, and I would like to see those changes, but from what I have seen and heard the changes aren't so radical that they blow me away and make me salivate for the patch.

As to the expansion pack, it looks nice and if it does come to the Mac, I will consider getting it. However, from everything I have read, it isn't that cool of an expansion. Sure it adds some additional civs and multi-player ability, but from the comments and reviews I have read, it isn't that great for the money.

I am not saying that I wouldn't like these features for the Mac. But, to me, they don't make a huge impact on the game. Just my opinion.

[Minmaster]

this is a very touch subject for a lot of people, but i will try to be objective. ive owned and used macs for over a decade as well as pcs. if you are a gamer, then i would recommend staying away from macs. although i am a mac gaming enthusiast, the amount of time we have to wait for ports as well as the quality of the port doesnt justify the money that couldve been spent buying the same game on pc for less price (by the time a mac port is done, the game on pc side is old news has gone down in price- there are exception, like warcraft 3). however, if gaming isnt one of your bigger needs, and u like to do creative work, the mac is a easier and has more polished apps for such tasks. i like to have both computers around so i can get the best of both worlds. but as far as civ is concerned, i m not too happy with the quality of mac civ3 port as well as it lagging behind in patches and its lack of editor. so if you are a hardcore civver, i dont think you would be happy with a mac. also a big factor is the amount of money you would like to spend. if you got the $$ to spend, and dont mind the price disparity between pcs, then theres one less thing to consider.

not long ago, i read a very insightful post about the "switch" at a mac gaming forum and i think it explains a lot of things very well so let me post it because this post tells it 1000 times i can ever.

" You may or may not be aware of it, but you have just plunged into a topic that verges on the religious for some individuals. This subject has the tendency to raise the ire of Mac and Windows zealots alike, especially in mixed company. Luring these two species into conflict at a party or company picnic is more fun than releasing a bag full of monkeys at a **** fight. I know, I know, I lead a sheltered existence.

I will give you my (very humble ;-) opinion based on my background. I have worked for the last two and half years in a UNIX environment as a Design Verification Engineer for a multinational telecommunications company (one of the big ones). I initially began working my way through my comp sci degree as a Windows sys admin then as a programmer (in both Windows and UNIX). Until recently, I have worked and played primarily in a PC environment that has been heavily influenced by a strong UNIX background. However, I have recently switched over to a Dual 1GHz G4 Tower utilizing OSX 10.1.5.

Moses, this is beginning to sound like the archetypical "switched" campaign. So, on from the slew of self-aggrandizing tripe. Let's get to the meat of the subject and I mean the really tasty bits.

How does OS X compare with MS Windows? A.K.A. "Whoop-de-doo, Basil! What does it all mean?"

I have long held that there continues to exist a legitimate use for both platforms. That by compositing a list of each system's strengths, their specific niches would become readily apparent. However, with the advent of OSX I believe that Apple has entered into a serious endeavour to blur if not eradicate the traditional boundaries between each OS. I do not intend to discount other serious UNIX-based attempts to enter the home user market such as LINUX. Being somewhat of a technofreeq myself, I hold LINUX in high regard. These are earnest and significant systems, but we should keep in mind that - so far - they are pretty much still earmarked for the compuphiles among us. That is, if you love the process of problem solving, if tweaking and tuning your home machine is your greatest passion - then by all means grab a copy of LINUX and satisfy that deep soulful need.

As previously mentioned in earlier responses to your query, OSX is a BSD UNIX implementation. All I will add to this particular commentary is that the BSD OS, like the RedHat OS, is a well-known platform in the UNIX-based community with a solid history. Appraise yourself of the maturity of BSD's OS by doing some research online.

I briefly exercised my god-given right to run Win98 on my PC and became an instant NT convert. I now currently run the ever so popular Windows 2000 on my PC (essentially an NT enhancement). My mother still runs Win98 utilizing a scanner, laser printer, cable modem, sound card, and a flash card reader for her embroidery machine's memory card. The resulting conflicts with this mundane litany of hardware produced an endless series of support calls that I'm sure raised the profit lines of both Ma Bell and MTS (formerly Manitoba Telephone Service - now Manitoba Telecom Services). Truly, we are not discussing the use of high end professional equipment with all the requisite eccentricities we might then associate to the overall process.

Some of my favourite recurring events were Win98's Plug'n'Play periodically disassociating itself from the mouse and the keyboard. I've actually had this happen between keystrokes while the hardware was plugged in and accessible. I eventually traced the problem to its source and quickly resolved the issue. However, it is my opinion that in our time limited world not everyone has the desire or patience to endure yet another hardware/ software conflict, when all they fancy is to print out a simple Word document. Even in the world of Windows, Win98 is considered far from a stable environment. In moving from Win98 to OSX, you will see an marked increase in OS speed and stability. I am assuming at this point due to your request for a comparison between the G4 and an x486 processor, that you are actually running in an x486 environment. Hence, the statement that you will experience a distinct increase in speed.

It is my strong belief that individuals in the Windows community are becoming more and more reticent to upgrade due to this inherent instability. Upon arriving at a coveted configuration who would yearn to set out on yet another conflict driven journey tantamount to the tales Homer sang about the Iliad (D'ohhh! Not that Simpson guy). I am not espousing the doctrine that OSX users will report a trouble free existence. However, under normal operating conditions, the number of system lockups and renegade processes experienced in OSX will be comparatively rare with respect to Win98.

The primary reasoning behind why I ventured into the land of Mac belongs to what I call the triad: a great Human Computer Interface (BTW - HCI is a great field that is ripe with opportunity), a UNIX core, and a brave move towards the Open Source philosophy.

OSX is quickly maturing into a strong platform that allows users from a wide set of circumstances to employ the OS as best benefits their requirements. My nine year old has been playing her games and doing her school research via a Win2000 account for the last couple of years. Each time she logs into her account, I am besieged with a variety of requests for help. I was astounded upon our first visit to an Apple retailer to discover her quietly enthralled behind the wheel of brand new iMac. She was happily amusing herself by looking through the OSX environment and shuttling through online web pages at an amazing rate. Hey, they're cute too!

Ever since I brought home the G4 tower, my daughter has not logged into her Win2000 account again. She plays most of her existing games (the majority of them work, none of the cereal box games are Mac compatible), browses the Net, plays CDs and internet radio programs, and is ready to do her first burn as we speak. All of this on the Mac and without a peep of discontent. While it is only a sample space of one (hardly the hardcore empirical data you might require), I believe this is due the high degree of HCI design that has gone into Apple's implementation.

With regard to native UNIX/XWindows software, I have not yet had any difficulty running any software that I require. I have also done some preliminary research with respect to this question and so far I have not been disappointed with any of the outcomes. I have to note that the development of an OS with a UNIX core was the primary fulcrum which promoted my "switch". I do a lot of technical work and I absolutely require access to resources of a highly technical nature. The arrow that Cupid forced between my ribs was the ability to go to the GNU Project and download the free UNIX command-line C compiler called GCC. Running GCC on my Mac was an utterly euphoric sensation hearkening back to the bad old days of late nights, two litre Coke bottles, and stressed university deadlines. I told you that I lived a sheltered life. Technofreeqs unite!

Finally, as a programmer and a freely functioning individual, I do have a number of reservations regarding Microsoft and their growing monopoly. Specifically, intellectual property issues and Microsoft's proclivity towards stifling dissent and eliminating competition. Hence, when I discovered that Apple was to allow Open Source development for OSX, I decided to show my support for this decision with my cheque book. If you have no knowledge of Open Source, here is a brief exerpt that may help define the concept:

"Open source is a term for the historical development model used by the Internet community to facilitate distributed development of complex, high-quality software. The basic principle is to involve as many people as possible in writing and debugging code, by publishing the source code and encouraging the formation of a large community of developers who will submit modifications and enhancements. Community efforts such as BSD, Linux, Sendmail, Apache, and Perl embody the spirit and power of the open source model."

What is the G4? A.K.A. "But I'm tryin' [Ringo]. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."

I will not add much more to the previous discussions about the G4 other than to re-affirm that this specific chipset is a RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computers) based design. Here is a late 90's excerpt specifying what RISC is all about: "The instruction set is the hardware "language" in which the software tells the processor what to do. Surprisingly, reducing the size of the instruction set -- eliminating certain instructions based upon a careful quantitative analysis, and requiring these seldom-used instructions to be emulated in software -- can lead to higher performance, for several reasons:
- The vacated area of the chip can be used in ways that accelerate the performance of more commonly used instructions, more than compensating for the inevitably degraded performance of the seldom-used instructions.
- It becomes easier to optimize the design.
- It allows microprocessors to use techniques hitherto restricted to the largest computers.
- It simplifies translation from the high-level language in which people program into the instruction set that the hardware understands, resulting in a more efficient program."

The system that a user should get will be based on the two principal pillars of the decision-making process: budget and requirements. Before anyone begins to salivate over any system purchase whether it be WinTel or Mac, they need to decide on the parameters of their final purchase. What is the maximum amount the purchase can cost? This is not to advise spending to that limit. It is a guideline for the consumer's wishlist. A means of reigning in impulse purchases. It also commences the justification process of cost-benefit analysis through which we all proceed at some level.

The next element of the decision requires absolute honesty. Keep in mind that there truly is a difference between desire and need. The best way to approach this stage is to sit down and write out two lists - a minimalist inventory of must have components and a fanciful catalogue of our most coveted hi-tech morsels. The final system will most likely combine elements from both lists.

All the G4 towers are dual processor kits with the facility for minimal customization with respect to current PC expectations. Both the iMac and the eMac are lower end machines respectively, with almost no room for expansion or alteration internally. Apple laptops have at least as much capacity for user-defined configuration as any of their Intel based compatriots. Nevertheless, it is important to point out that with the number Firewire and USB ports available on each machine, external expansion is an easy and highly recommended route for the technically disabled; both physically and metaphysically.

I have to state at this point that Intel chipsets are fast out-stripping the Motorola architecture in terms of clock cycles. One simply has to look at the latest chips available to the public. Intel is beginning to push the 3GHz envelope and Motorola has just pushed their 1.25GHz chip out to market. This is not an insignificant difference. A user's reaction to this issue, in combination with the much more limited ability to modify the Mac's hardware, will aid in defining their specific user definition. For example, I invariably end up in an intense discussion of each environment's strengths when speaking with a friend who is a high-end PC gamer. Without exception, his arguments boil down to the limited tweakability of the Mac and the more stunted availability of games and hardware. Whereas, my reasoning always distills into the common statement, "a computer is more than the sum of its parts." That is, like unto ages past when the biggest, baddest chariots with largest number of horses may have been the ultimate source of pride. Fashion and sensibility cycles through to the other end of the spectrum where efficiency and sublimity once again become the pivotal standard.

Remember, the majority of users still primarily utilize their computers for email and word processing. It is the more prevalent use of graphics and gaming that is driving our lust for the latest and greatest. With this in mind, how much power is actually required to read email? Nevertheless, I am not trying to belay technology or progress. I am simply stating that not all of us would actually want to use a high performance racing vehicle to commute back and forth to work everyday due to the heavy maintenance requirements. Sure, it would be a blast until the trip home when you would have to strip the engine down to its heads and valves to machine them for the trip home.

Thus, with all of this in mind we wrap up the final elements of this subject. Mac's can only be customized. They cannot be built to spec in the manner we expect from PCs. If you are on the upper end of the gaming scale, you will experience inconvenience and frustration when waiting for the Mac equivalents of the latest PC hardware or software introductions. For example, I am currently awaiting the wide distribution of the Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti for Mac. Whenever I hear that there exist three Ti models for PC and only a single option for the Mac, it is readily apparent which platform is under more ubiquitous gaming development. Notwithstanding these elements, the G4 tower allows for modification of storage devices (optical, IDE, or SCSI), RAM, video cards, and additional PCI slots for any desired expansion capacity.

With regard to normal office work and web browsing, I find the Mac is the more superior machine. Even Internet Explorer is better on the Mac. The Apple implementation of this browser features a sexy and more intuitive iconical interface. This is enhanced by the ability to drag and drop links onto your favourites bar and the program dock. An additional surprise was discovering the ability to drag and drop any image from the browser window to the desktop or any folder (directory) on the hard drive. Interchange of files between the Mac and PC is becoming more and more of a non-issue due to the ease of exchange.

My initial post-purchase Mac startup was incredibly graceful. I was prompted for some simple information entries and my Mac was ready to go - network aware and all. I simply started up the machine and went to work.

Most of your existing USB hardware should be accessible via the existing configuration, with little need to seek out drivers from the Net. Most non-USB peripherals can be utilized via the purchase of an adapter. There exist no serial, parallel, or bus (PS2) ports as you have come to expect of the PC.

The Mac is loaded and shipped with a conglomerate of software programs. These include the iFamily of software developed by Apple, such as iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, Internet Explorer, Mail, a central Address Book available to any number of inquiring programs, an RTF (Rich Text Format) Text Editor, QuickTime, and DVD software to play your favourite movies - to name but a few. iTunes is a great instance of this freely available family of software in that it allows the user to easily play internet radio programs, audio discs, MP3 discs, or burn with ultimate ease. With the advent of OSX 10.2, Apple also offers a calendar program (iCal) and a synchronization program (iSync) for a number of mobile devices such as PDA's and cell phones. In the end, only you can decide which system will most benefit your particular needs and desires. In my particular case, the switch was easy, painless and somewhat euphoric. "

if you want to see the whole thread, go http://www.macgamer.com/wcgi-bin/ubb...c&f=2&t=000776
its about someone who is thinking about making the switch who has some questions.