War & progress

[rremus]

Actually , units could be upgraded without reserching new Advances!
I'm think at WWII, take tanks or planes as an example. At the begining of conflict, tanks had 20-30 mm thick armor (the Matilda II was the expcetion, not the rule!) and 35-45 mm guns. In 2-3 years, they evolved to 100-110 mm thick armor and 85-100 mm high velocity guns. Same with planes. They evolved in the space of few years more than evolved in previous 12-20 years!
But they we're still tanks and planes, no new unit types!
In civ, we could have something like this. If a conflict is inevitable (or is already undergoing), you could research not a new advance, but an upgrade to the current units you have! Such reserach could cost less than a normal advance, around 200-300 science 'bulbs'. The result would be a unit with increased attack/defense points! Each unit type could have a maximum upgradability.
Ex. Phalanx starts with 1 attack/2 defense. You spend some reserach in increasing the Phalanx capability and you 'discover' the Phalanx Mk II, with 2 attack/3 defense. Further research leads to the Phalanx Mk III, which has 2 attack/4 defense! And this is the maximum upgradability of the Phalanx. I'm thinking at different upgradabilities for attack/defense in order to preserve the original offensive/defensive nature of the unit. Mobility should be also subject to upgrades.
This could be applied to any unit type, of course.
Same with Armor, but an Armor has a much higher upgradability. Maybe it could be upgraded up to an Armor Mk VII or even an Armor Mk X, with 20 attack/15 defense.
Each upgrade would also increase the production cost of the unit by 10-15% (maybe even the maintenance cost).
These upgrades should be available as any other science advance. Instead of selecting "Literacy", you could select "Phalanx Mk II" or "Cannon Mk III" as a research.
These researches could be done in War time or in Peace time, no matter.
Once you researched an upgraded unit, it's available for production. It should have the same icon as the basic unit. Leonardo's Workshop should upgrade all units to highest possible model, of course.
I think is a simple yet realistic model!

[Shogun Gunner]

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 10-23-2000 07:12 AM Yes, his name is Antonie Fokker, the English called him f....r which in fact is the direct translation.

Ah! Now this is coming back to me... hence the name of the series of German airplanes Fokker Dr1, etc. They named these in his honor.

Very ironic linguistic conincidence.

[Shogun Gunner]

I like your idea rremus. This would simulate the slowdown in all other sectors of a country as the war effort becomes priority one.

I like this for a second reason. I had mentioned this on another thread. Pick any unit from any period of history. The strength and capability of that unit was not same across countries. Different countries invested more into their military - Sparta, Germany (WWII), Japan (WWII), Hitties to name just a few. A Greek phalanx was the best in the world during it's time and not's forget the Roman legions. There should be a way to differentiate between similiar units from different places. They were not all created equal.

The best of all, rremus' idea gives you, the game player, the choice. You don't want to compromise your economy, your arts, your investment into agriculture then don't! It's a trade-off between guns and butter. This is a cornerstone of Civilization.

It's all about strategy... a different thread also!

[Vrank Prins]

The crux is, that when you're saying I want also a better tank (one which is technologically more sophisticated or stronger (whatever)), you're almost saying I want two/three units in subsequent order in strenght which derive from one CIV-advancement. I can't see how that should be done. It could mean that more advancemenents have to be focussed on the building of whatever army stuff. That's a hazard to the game.
I don't think there is a need for this kind of more detailed development of things we already have got in the game, just to have the opportunity to outgun the enemy with the same, but just a bit more advanced equipment.
The being of advanced flight in CIV-I&II to me is strange enough. The Germans already bombed London at the end of WW-I with there Gotha-bombers. Maybe this could be changed to just Flight, jet-propulsion (that should be a new tech) and finally stealth, those have been the three major developments in flight. But NOT, to make the point, flight 1&2&3 and jet-propulsion 1&2&3 or PANZER 1&2&3.
This also means your getting to much into detail in one period of the game. But which period should it be. The (Anglo)Saxons, late 10th century, developed the longbow, which was superior to all its predecessors. The Mongols, mid 13th century, developed an even better twocomposite bow. I mean, how far can we go.
I think we shoudn't endulge ourselves into too much detail of these things.