Bamboozled by "Always Renegotiate"

[Arrian]

Catt,

I've seen the exact same thing.

cracker,

I have stopped even trying to make luxury for luxury trades with the AI once I get rolling (once I'm powerful). It's pointless. In the game I just finished, I offered 6 luxuries, horses, and two outdated techs for 1 luxury. I was told my offer was insulting. The reason, of course, was that I owned most of the world. My empire was huge and populous. Therefore, clearly, I could not get a decent deal. So I did what I've been doing for a while: I killed them and took their luxury.

-Arrian

[SpencerH]

So is the consensus that in tweaking the trade system from 1.17 to 1.29 that it has become a pain? I know I dont seem to be able to trade 1 for 1 for luxuries with the AI, I'm either too weak or too strong.

Seems to me that this thread would be an excellent choice for a Firaxian to address.

[alva]

offcourse the luxury fore you is worth far more then what you are offering him. But yes it feels wrong.

[Arrian]

alva848,

No doubt. Luxuries are worth more to me, because I build marketplaces, grow my cities, and aim to get most of my cities in WLTKD.

I understand giving up 2, 3 or even 4 luxuries in exchange for 1 if I'm the top dog.

I tried something else the night before last. I renegotiated my peace treaty with a weak AI civ. I offered, in exchange for peace, all of my luxuries (6), a strategic resource (iron?) in exchange for their 1 luxury. I was laughed at.

I was in effect saying "fork over the luxury or I will kill you." I was THE power in the world. Killing the civ in question was quick and painless (for me). By refusing my deal - a deal that did include compensation - they effectively committed suicide.

Believe it or not, I'm not a warmonger at heart. I have come to relish the power of the dark side, but even now, once I am confident of my position, I will halt my bloodthirsty hordes and play nice... if I could (this assumes, of course, that I have properly safeguarded my reputation by wiping out all who know of my transgressions). But I can't. Once powerful, I cannot get a decent deal. That's really only tenable until the early industrial age. Once hospitals come around, I need those luxuries, folks.

I have come to think of it as a cost benifit analysis. The cost of trading for a luxury: all of my luxuries, some tech, my map, and a large gpt amount - OR - a 5 to 10 war of aggression which I will win easily, perhaps gaining a great leader or two. Gee Gomer, what should I do?

-Arrian

[alva]

What you are discribing is probably the last big problem with civ3, at least in SP.

But it gonna be very hard to solve this problem.
There is no point in having an AI that gives away everything for not.

If it would just be a little smarter in defending.
Or knowing when to give in

[cracker]

The side effect of having the AI players so handicapped by the software that they cannot trade with you is that the game becomes increasingly monolithic --- everyone else must die.

If there is no value to having a good reputation and good relationships with your neighbors then the only value they have is as potential points on the map to use to generate great leaders.

The Luxury trade imbalance is just the prime indicator that Captain Smith is back at helm of the Titanic.

Arrian's examples are right on track with mine and what I think is missing in the equation that the AI uses to evaluate the trade is some sort of relative percentage assessment. When I have six luxuries and am trying to trade for luxury number seven in a marketplace world, then I will be adding eight happy faces to go with the 14 happy faces I already have. If the AI only has 2 luxuries they have two happy faces and if I trade them 4 luxuries they will gain 12 new happy faces which is a 600% increase compared to my gain of just over 50%. yes I have more peopel and more cities to benefit fron teh gain, but tough toenails. There is some value in the porcess of being involved in a trade and this seems to have been thrown out the window again with the V1.29 patch.

I even have thsi same stupid problem wher I am the only trading partner the AI can possibley trade with. The other civs are across an ocean that is impassable and untradeable to the AI but I can cross because I am technologically advanced. They stille will not trade for gross mismatches or 5 or 6 to 1.

[SpencerH]

I think an improvement would be for republic or democratic civs to have "favored trading status" that would be more likely to result in 1-1 luxury trading. After all, trade is one of the hallmarks of those civs.

[planetfall]

Or could increase odds of 1:1 trades by percent of marketplaces in civ. Doesn't it make sense if more cities have marketplaces, luxuries will be traded more?

--PF

[Arrian]

There is another problem with this.

I have discovered that, if I neither wish to invade a civ or pay its outrageous demands (typically the case if the AI civ in question is relatively strong), the best policy is to simply sell them my luxuries for as much gpt as possible. This has 2 effects: 1) I gain gold, and can afford a higher luxury rate; and 2) I drain their treasury.

This is the best method of dealing with the top AI civ. Meanwhile, I pick off the weaker ones and take their luxuries... allowing me to sell more and more stuff to the top AI civ. This will bankrupt them and result in a large tech lead for me, so that when the time comes for a showdown, I will most likely have far superior weaponry.

-Arrian

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Instead of starting a thread, I just wanted to drop something here because its along the same lines.

I give an AI civ thats cautious with a my World Maps as a token of whatever to make them a little nicer to me ... but what happens? they drop to ANNOYED! WHA????

It happened to me again just this morning ... I gave an opponent who was polite a tech because i want a gracious ally one day, but they dropped from polite to annoyed !! ARGH!!!

I want to know whats happening!

*sigh*

Cheers
~Thadalex

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Just to add on ... I know this happens when I used to give a civ a city that i conquered just because it was remote and useless and I know it was useless ... I guess the AI did too ... but how could they find a tech useless?

The best I can fathom is that they think I want them to be friendly with me and they don't like that idea?

Cheers
~Thadalex

[Arrian]

Now that does sound odd... the attitude change occurred immediately?

-Arrian

[ThaddeusAlexander]

It did happen immediately. I know the AI can glitch or maybe percieve good things as bad because of whatever situation, but is the AI capable of this following train of information "This player declaired war on someone before after he game them a gift at one point. Now he's giving me the gift. Logically, he will now declare war on me" ???

It just doesn't seem right to me.

Cheers
~Thadalex

[Arrian]

Did you give them a tech that allowed the knowledge/use of a strategic resource you have and they don't?

That's the only thing I can think of.

-Arrian

[Randolph]

Diplomacy in general seems to eroded as the game goes on… sometimes it seems like the whole world gets piss at me for no readily apparent reason. It seems that in the long term the AI can’t be trusted or dealt with peacefully, if you want it you have to take it.
Particularly once you become a superpower everyone seems to just hate you.. well I guess it’s just not much of a world peace game (not unless you want to be the world’s bi*ch).