Opps- waited too long. Any hope?

[planetfall]

Blast it. I keep on forgetting even thought it looks risky to change from building to running early war, it is absolutely necessary or you get in more hurts.

Don't know if current game is salvageable as China's growth snuck up on me again. Ok, after 2 games of China problems, I definitely need to deal with them earlier.

I will attach a couple mini's and you can tell me if you see any hope. The only option I can see is using wartime mobilization, but I hate to give up culture building in newly acquired areas. I have never used wartime mobilization so I am not sure what it can do for me or against me.

--PF

[planetfall]

Looks like the forum is having problems with the gif. I had to view image and then I could see it.

1100ad

Reading from West to East

Red==Rome
Only civ I share a continent with.
Blue==Germany

Brown==Russia
Part of big continent and big island

Dark Green==Japan
Very weak, only 5 cities.

Cyan==American
Color is a bit garbled. Amer has 9 cities to the East of Japan, N of Russia and NW of China.

Purple==China
Biggest land area and I thought Greece and Russia and Amer would be able to hold them in check.

Green==Greece
Only other civ on continent that has potential to harrass China. But unlike Russia has no "safe" island retreat zone.


At 1100 AD, I realized I waited too long to deal with Rome. So I thought a few more turns won't matter. Focus at this point was on: Hoover, TOE, UnivSuff. I was barely able to get all three but it was definitely touch and go as usually there were 3-4 civs building the GW at the same time.

1400 AD next

--PF

--

[planetfall]

Once again had to view image separately and press back before could view image.

1400-- No cyan. China removed Amer. I was in a MPP with China as Rome had entered a MPP with Greece. I really did not want to weaken Greece because I wanted them to retain full strength versus China. Naturally near the end of the MPP China decided to take on Amer and they were history very soon afterwards.

By this time I have taken 2 Roman cities at the choke points. It is a long struggle as I have 15 inf and Roman with no rubber traded for rubber and upgraded so they had 13 inf.
I only had 4 bombardment units, so building more units. It just takes so long when you have not prebuilt but are fighting and building a military at the same time. With the recent China expansion there is no way I can afford to wait any longer. I need Lebensraum.

Next is current stage: 1450ad

-- PF

[miccofl]

You had better get everyone else on your side and gang up on China or pray for nukes - lots and lots of nukes.

[Tiberius]

I would have forced a global alliance against China. With everybody fighting against them you should have been able to conquer and keep at least a chinese city, thus establishing a base for further operations. Now it is too late for that.

You won't have problems eliminating the romans, but after that, I see no chance winning the game by military means. However, I'm not a warmongerer guru, so maybe others could advise you better.

[planetfall]

Final image.

It is now 1450 ad.

Small continent:
I have expanded and taken 3 more Roman cities. {I know only 3 in 50 years}. Rome itself actually fell after this turn. {the center dot above the blue Y}.

Rome would have sued for peace but had no gold, no luxuries, no techs to offer. Rather than have them revert, I continue to press on. I don't care about presence on small island. But do want the continent and the 3 dot island.

Military at this time is 43 infantry, 12 art, 6 cavs.

Large continent:
China is going crazy! Woah nellie. Greece is now down to 1 city on big continent. So much for stopping China. China has 115 inf. Russia is miniscule with about 15-20 inf. Russia has cherry picked and temporarily planted 3 cities in the newly freed up space. Two below Greece and one NE.

Ok, now you see the situation. Other than going back to an old save and working on Rome earlier {which I plan to try later}, is there any way to save this opps game?

Time buyer #1
I have a transport with 1 settler and 3 inf in lower 1 city island and plan to sail to white square. Not much there but mountains, hopefully there will still be a place to plant a diverting settler.

Time buyer #2
If TB#1 fails, I might be able to get the small Greece island off the main continent. I would like to have Russia around for awhile and if can get a presense to south and can put in an airport {tech about 9 turns away}, it can distract China.

BTW- China capital is about even with right brown divider on the frame. It looks like the frame just barely covers it.

Since N should still be weak, I plan to move E and land in NE where America was for my continent foot hold. It will be nasty fighting and long shot. I can probably get
20 inf and 8 art over there.

My fear is by the time I take care of Rome and get any presense Russia and Japan will long sense have disappeared.

Germany plusses
Hoover
high productivity
2 techs from panzers
most cities have factories and all culture
UnivSuff

Even
tech race
distance from other major civ
annoying civs in the arena

China plusses
infanty 3x next largest
largest land area
no need to trade for luxuries


Idea?

Thanks.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by miccofl
You had better get everyone else on your side and gang up on China or pray for nukes - lots and lots of nukes.

Too late. Game preference== no nukes.

[jshelr]

I give you 80% chance for a win, but you have to slug it out in the modern era. Research to MA first and be ready to upgrade and transport. The AI is no match for you in seaborn invasion. Much of that pink area is wartorn and useless. It will fall like a ripe banana. Buck up man!! You are doing fine.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I would have forced a global alliance against China. With everybody fighting against them you should have been able to conquer and keep at least a chinese city, thus establishing a base for further operations. Now it is too late for that.

That was my initial plan about 1100ad, but Greece would not consider either MPP or MilAl. America was also not interested. Best I could get was a MPP from Russia, and now that has expired and they don't want to renew.

I tried to strength Russia by giving nationalism, Amer by 3 luxuries, Greece by 2 luxuries. Lot of good it did me.

Now you see why I titled this "opps..."

-- PF

[Ethelred]

Two ways to go.

You can turtle up and shoot for the Space Race. There is now way for China to invade you if you have the place railroaded fully and have enough artillery. Some ships to finish the bombarded Chinese ships would be needed as well. I don't think China can get a domination victory without invading you. It may be close though so it would be a good idea to take some more land and hold it.

The other way is that you are close to panzers. Build eight or more transports starting now while you are waiting for the panzers. More will be better as that will allow you to invade at more than point. Hit China with a HORDE of panzers where they have got a rail network up. That way you can blitz city after city. You will need to raze many of them I suspect but if you overdo it you won't be able to keep those panzers rolling at top speed. I hate razing but you may not have a choice in this instance.

With tanks razing would be the best thing to do but with panzers you can hit a city and with rails you can hit another and then another going deeper and deeper all in one turn.

Build some destroyers and battleships to escort the transports. Don't bother with planes, they won't be able to keep up with a panzer blitz. They can't even keep up with tanks.

Invasion is going to take a LOT of panzers if China has a lot of infantry. Hit Chinas resources. Oil in particular. If you can knock all its oil it will be stuck with inferior units. Be ready to rush build an airport in the Chinese territory and have plenty in your territory to move the Panzers over quicker than you can with transports.

Don't bother with a half done invasion. If you don't hit the beaches with enough units you will be pushed back. You are going to eventually need about one panzer per infantry unit that China has. Not that many to start with but you must be able to keep producing panzers faster than China can produce infantry. This means your should have ten or more cities that can produce a panzer in two turns and it would be nice to have have Ironworks so you have one city cranking them out every turn. Normally the AI will not be able to match that due to its poorer shield production.

If you can take out Chinas core cities fast you will have the game in hand and based on those mini-maps it looks to me like you should be able to invade from the former Roman cities west across the water to reach the Chinese core cities.

[jshelr]

The panzer invasion is good advice and is correct if you can produce the units in time as it will give you a golden age at just the right time. I suppose you could mobilize anyway. Otherwise, if it takes longer, wait for MA as China will upgrade to MI.

As for the invasion, if you land a stack on a mountain, you don't need much defensive support to ward off the Chinese initial response -- which might actually be no response if your stack is big enough.

Personally, I'd take settlers, not to replace cities, but to bridge gaps and allow the bllitz to continue. What I mean is that sometimes you can't get to the next city in three moves, so your panzers or MA units are stymied. You can, however, always move a settler to the outlying square of a captured city, abandon the city, and build with the settler. That "captures" one more square of enemy RR and allows the panzer blitz to continue. I bet you could use this trick easily five times in a job as big as you face.

If you bog down or there are lots of Chinese MI, a stack of arty, bigger the better, while it moves more slowly, will keep you going against heavy resistance.

The key fact is that this will be a one-sided war. China is not coming to you. You are going to China.

[Theseus]

PF, what in God's name are you worried about? Temples, Cathedrals, Univ Suffrage, Factories, and Hoovers?

Mobilization and Panzers, my man. 'Nuff said.

[N. Machiavelli]

Would you mid posting a save? I'd like to give this game a try.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Two ways to go.

You can turtle up and shoot for the Space Race. There is now way for China to invade you if you have the place railroaded fully and have enough artillery. Some ships to finish the bombarded Chinese ships would be needed as well. I don't think China can get a domination victory without invading you. It may be close though so it would be a good idea to take some more land and hold it.

NoGo, Space is boring, turned off. Emotional rush by winning/losing does not compare to rush of conquest

The other way is that you are close to panzers. Build eight or more transports starting now while you are waiting for the panzers. More will be better as that will allow you to invade at more than point. Hit China with a HORDE of panzers where they have got a rail network up. That way you can blitz city after city. You will need to raze many of them I suspect but if you overdo it you won't be able to keep those panzers rolling at top speed. I hate razing but you may not have a choice in this instance.

With tanks razing would be the best thing to do but with panzers you can hit a city and with rails you can hit another and then another going deeper and deeper all in one turn.

Razing, duh. I don't like razing either, but you are right. It would be important in this case, at least with the native China Cities.

The biggest advantage of not razing is movement hinderance of counter attacks.

Build some destroyers and battleships to escort the transports.

What worked last time was

• 5 transports
  
  
  
  1. artillery only
     
  2. infantry only
     
  3. infantry only; or InfArmy + inf. However in this game not one GL yet.
     
  4. panzers only
     
  5. settlers (2), infantry (6)
     
  
  
• 2 BS
  
• 5 Des
  

I may lose a DS or two, but transports will survive.

Don't bother with planes, they won't be able to keep up with a panzer blitz. They can't even keep up with tanks.

Actually use planes about 3 turns after landing, when naval protection returns to home. Add 2 carriers, 2 fighters and 6 bombers. China only has 3 rubber and 2 are within 2 tiles of sea. If I can divert production to fighters and naval units, less for panzers/MA to roll over.

A fighter and a few bombers over key landing zone seem quite effective in guaranting landing zone survival.

Invasion is going to take a LOT of panzers if China has a lot of infantry.

Even worst if they get MI. MA will be first tech to go for in Modern Era

Hit Chinas resources. Oil in particular. If you can knock all its oil it will be stuck with inferior units.

Huh, I was going to go for rubber first. I'll relook at oil

Be ready to rush build an airport in the Chinese territory and have plenty in your territory to move the Panzers over quicker than you can with transports.

Don't bother with a half done invasion. If you don't hit the beaches with enough units you will be pushed back. You are going to eventually need about one panzer per infantry unit that China has. Not that many to start with but you must be able to keep producing panzers faster than China can produce infantry. This means your should have ten or more cities that can produce a panzer in two turns and it would be nice to have have Ironworks so you have one city cranking them out every turn. Normally the AI will not be able to match that due to its poorer shield production.

No ironworks, but I have never found ironworks to be too effective. My core cities can pump out military now in 1-2 turns. After MA I will research ManuPlants.

Don't think I need a 1:1 ratio of panzers to AI infantry. Mechs maybe, but a 1 inf : .75 panzers should be more than enough. Remember they retreat and can take time to heal.

Key here is to be able to match AI production at worst and exceed it at best.

Another reason why opps game. Needed Roman cities up to production now, not in 100 turns when the game has already been decided.

If you can take out Chinas core cities fast you will have the game in hand and based on those mini-maps it looks to me like you should be able to invade from the former Roman cities west across the water to reach the Chinese core cities.

Yes this is the primary landing zone. I never make a landing until at least 1/2 of my core cities have airports and I have enough cash to rush in 2 landing zone cities: 1st-airport, 2nd-barracks, 3rd-library, 4th-harbor.

Great idea

Previously I have focused on easy pickings, the outlying areas and moved inward. I'll have to try hitting core cities first. I don't think AI will fight back any harder and each city won means a great gain in both reducing China culture and hammering production capability.

Ok, you have convinced me, game is not hopeless yet. Just need to be careful. And Monarch is worst than this. Yikes.

-- PF


jshelr
Golden age just started about 2 turns before 1450.

Better advancing technique to keep momentum:

1. capture city
2. sell off all you can
3. move units thru the 3 tiles of the city you can
4. repeat as much as possible, leave NO units in city.
5. {this is key}. Don't forget to abandon city BEFORE turn ends.

It is amazing how far you can get this way, if you are willing to open up areas of influence.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
Would you mid posting a save? I'd like to give this game a try.

What year? 1450? or earlier

-- PF