Two Things I Want to Say

[wernazuma]

There are two things in the Civ tech-tree I never understood:
1. Why does (Gold-)Currency come BEFORE Trade? Agreed, you need some currency-like thing for trade but wheather that's salt, cocoa, camels, shells, cattle, feathers or metal (all those things were really used as currency by some peoples anywhen in history) doesn't matter and there has always been ANY currency. Coinage (and that's what the Civ2 "Currency" is) on the other hand makes trade easier and more efficient, but it was not before trade!!!!

2. Why Alphabet before Writing? The first writings were not much more than drawings probably used to record some astronomical data, taxes/tributes or to illustrate a special event. Writing without an alphabet was always an ART, limited to a few "wise men" who knew the secret of writing and reading whereas the alphabet (first invented by the phoenicians, something earlier if we accept syllabic-writing systems) made writing accessible to a much broader part of population. So here again the tech-tree should be all the other way around.

They imported those two severe mistakes from Civ1 to Civ2, so we really should do something that they don't make the same mistake in Civ3.

[Evil Capitalist]

I think by trade they mean long distance trade routes, rather than barter- like routes across the sea, or to distant lands.

I also used to wonder about writing, and my best solution is they mean the breaking down of languages into letters, rather than their writing down.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Wernazuma,

You're absolutely right!

These grave errors have been pointed out several times. I hope Firaxis watches this Forum and wil correct them!

There are of course many others in the current Tech Tree. What irritates me most is the reversed order of the Wheel and Horseback Riding.

the Wheel
the chariot (NB: not the war chariot) for carrying goods was invented ~3500BC

War Chariot
soon after 1800BC: invention of light but sturdy two-wheeled vehicles that could dash about the field of battle behind a team of galloping horses without upsetting or breaking down. The compound bow was an important part of the charioteers' equipment.

quote: Domestication not for flesh, milk and hides alone but for transport was a relatively later development. The recognition of castration as a means of subduing the uncomfortably potent bull occurred in Western Asia before 4500BC. The taming of the steppe horse did not occur before the first half of the second millennium BC (Lower Wolga and Hungarian region). The taming of the forest horse took place by the beginning of second millennium BC in Sweden and could have taken place elsewhere. Majumdar places the appearance of the horse in India at c 2500BC. The domestication of the bull and of the horse gave man a completely new supply of mechanical energy.

(source: C.M.Cipolla: 'The Economic History of World Population',1962)

Horseback Riding:
'No one knows for sure when the practice of riding on horseback first became normal, nor where. But early representations of horseback-riding show Assyrian soldiers astride.
Men occasionally rode horseback as early as the fourteenth century BC. This is proved by an Egyptian statuette of the Amarna age, now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York. The difficulty of remaining firmly on a horse's back without saddle or stirrups was, however, very great; and especially so if a man tried to use his hands to pull a bow at the same time- or wield some other kind of weapon. For centuries horseback riding therefore remained unimportant in military engagements, though perhaps specially trained messengers used their horses' fleetness to deliver information to army commanders. So, at least, Yadin interprets another, later, representation of a cavalryman in an Egyptian bas-relief recording the Battle of Qadesh(1298BC).'
(source: W.H.McNeill:'The Pursuit of Power',1983)

'Horses had been ridden in the civilised world since the second millennium. Riding is represented in Egyptian art as early as 1350BC and reliefs from the twelfth century show mounted soldiers, one of whom is taking part in the battle of Qadesh. None, however, is a cavalryman. All ride bareback, without stirrups, and straddle the horse toward its rump, not a control position. That indicates, indeed, that the horses were not yet strong enough in the back to be ridden in the modern style.

By the eighth centuryBC, however, selective breeding had produced a horse that Assyrians could ride from the forward seat, with their weight over the shoulders, and a sufficient mutuality had developed between steed and rider for the man to use a bow while in motion. Mutuality, or perhaps horsemanship, was not so far advanced, all the same, that riders were ready to release the reins: an Assyrian bas-relief shows cavalrymen working in pairs, one shooting his composite bow, the other holding the reins of both horses.'
(source: J.Keegan:'A History of Warfare',1993)

I have found other dates for the domestication of the steppe horse, the earliest being 4000BC. But that doesn't have consequences for my main point.

This discusion does actually belong in another thread.
Did you ever visit this thread? Or its forerunner?

Its a pity Harel disappeared from this earth. He volunteered to update the List with dates of all Tech advances, Wonders of the world, City improvements and Military units. It would be an incredibly huge amount of work, but I still hope it will be done. I think many underestimated the magnitude of such a task. Looking up reliable dates isn't easy!

Are you reading this, Yin26?

[Ralf]

Until you mentioned these two very severe problems, i have never even thought about it. Honest.

And i must have played that Civ-game hundreds and hundreds of times, from the early 90:ties on my Amiga, an onwards.

[Az]

I've thought about it lots of times , also .

in a similar way , how can tiles produce trade ,when trade hasn't been invented yet !

but if they mean long range trade ... I see their point.

[wernazuma]

Thanks for all your replies. When I started the thread of course I didn't think to be the first who mentions that but I felt like expressing these thoughts.

EC and Dalgetti: You've mentioned that if we make a difference between bartering and trade the tech-tree in Civ2 makes more sense. Well, I still disagree.
As my UserName indicates I have a faible for the aztec civ. The Aztecs and other pre-columbian cultures maintained long trade routes from Panama to northern Mexico (and probably beyond) without currency.
In th Old World the sumerians held trade-contact to India and the Mediterranean as early as the 4th mill.BC.
We know of chinese silk in a 6th century tomb of the Hallstatt culture, chariots from the 2nd mill.BC in China seem to be imports from the mediterranean area...
The invention of Coinage is ascribed to Croisos of Lydia (560-546BC) (for more see the thread quoted by S.Kroeze)
S.Kroeze: Somehow I knew you'd reply on my post

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