how do u play the game and still have gold

[Willem]

Originally posted by Moonsinger

Why not? Whatever methods you use to beat the AIs at Deity level will also work to all other levels. In fact, it would work much better at the easier level. Moreover, I have played at Regent and Monarch with zero research and it works even better than what would have been at the Deity level. The reason some people like to get ahead of the AIs in technology because they want to send their modern armors at against a helpless archer. If they want to do that, it's cool with me; however, victory seems so hollow if you ask me.

I guess it all depends on playing style. Myself, I like to be ahead of everyone, and actively research in order to get there. Mind you I only play on Regent, with an Expansionist civ, but I have no difficulty being top dog research wise. I don't like the idea that my enemy might have a unit that's more advanced than mine, it makes me feel vulnerable. Plus I've found that having some extra techs available helps a lot if I'm suddenly forced to drum up a military alliance quickly, or an MPP, without bankrupting my empire.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Willem
Mind you I only play on Regent, with an Expansionist civ, but I have no difficulty being top dog research wise.

I know what you mean...regardless of the level, with the Expansionist, you could get an entire Ancient tech tree from the goody huts. As an expansionist, it's probably a good idea not to focus on research until we run out of goody huts or until we get all the ancient techs.

[Theseus]

I have a slightly different take on the matter.

Clearly, waiting for multiple AI civs to have a given tech is the cheapest way to acquire that tech, whether through research, purchase, trade, or extortion. The first hurdle that many players have to get over is understanding that it's OK to be behind on research... but concluding that that means it's OK to do 0% research is another matter.

Now, one could make the argument for 0% research, and depending on buying, trading or extorting the cheapened techs as they come along. I think that misses, however, a key technique for mastery of the game.

While catch-up research would be cheap, it's a loser's game. Better to buy, trade, or extort those techs.

And researching the same techs as the AI makes no sense, as you are researching at full value, and will get no substantial payoff other than knowing the given tech.

Thus, it seems to me that in most cases, I do not want to be researching what the AI civs have researched or are researching, but rather I would be pointedly researching something that the AI civs are NOT.

Early in the game, I believe that due to the 40 turn minimum research restriction, allocating 20% (and then 10%, or just a scientist) of my productivity to research a tech which the AIs are NOT results in a very high pay-off when I then sell / trade the tech, and is a pretty minimal investment.

In the mid-game, the same applies, although I will increase the allocation higher, to the lowest rate that results in the fastest research time... the pay-offs here can be huge, and will certainly get you to parity on all the techs the AI civs have researched / traded, with significant income to boot.

Towards the end of the industrial age, there is what I call a research "corridor" starting with Mass Production. I'll do almost anything to gain the tech lead at this point, because aggressive research and aggressive sales / trading can put you ahead on each successive tech, and thus give you economic control of the world for a period of time (ending with the free techs given to the scientific civs upon the advent of modern times).

Finally, in modern times I'm racing for Tanks, Synthetic Fibers, and Computers, and then possibly the space race, so research goes into full gear, often at a deficit.

So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

[Theseus]

I have a slightly different take on the matter.

Clearly, waiting for multiple AI civs to have a given tech is the cheapest way to acquire that tech, whether through research, purchase, trade, or extortion. The first hurdle that many players have to get over is understanding that it's OK to be behind on research... but concluding that that means it's OK to do 0% research is another matter.

Now, one could make the argument for 0% research, and depending on buying, trading or extorting the cheapened techs as they come along. I think that misses, however, a key technique for mastery of the game.

While catch-up research would be cheap, it's a loser's game. Better to buy, trade, or extort those techs.

And researching the same techs as the AI makes no sense, as you are researching at full value, and will get no substantial payoff other than knowing the given tech.

Thus, it seems to me that in most cases, I do not want to be researching what the AI civs have researched or are researching, but rather I would be pointedly researching something that the AI civs are NOT.

Early in the game, I believe that due to the 40 turn minimum research restriction, allocating 20% (and then 10%, or just a scientist) of my productivity to research a tech which the AIs are NOT results in a very high pay-off when I then sell / trade the tech, and is a pretty minimal investment.

In the mid-game, the same applies, although I will increase the allocation higher, to the lowest rate that results in the fastest research time... the pay-offs here can be huge, and will certainly get you to parity on all the techs the AI civs have researched / traded, with significant income to boot.

Towards the end of the industrial age, there is what I call a research "corridor" starting with Mass Production. I'll do almost anything to gain the tech lead at this point, because aggressive research and aggressive sales / trading can put you ahead on each successive tech, and thus give you economic control of the world for a period of time (ending with the free techs given to the scientific civs upon the advent of modern times).

Finally, in modern times I'm racing for Tanks, Synthetic Fibers, and Computers, and then possibly the space race, so research goes into full gear, often at a deficit.

So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

[Demerzel]

better to tweak the base cost of stealing tech from 10 -> 7 and then use espionage as a second option apart from buying tech.

as is well known, on high levels research ( until late industrial age ) is pretty pointless - i like to be able to avoid giving an AI 2000+ gold for a tech, so I steal it now with the reduced costs meaning it costs about the same to do so but at least the AI doesnt get a bank balance boost.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
The reason some people like to get ahead of the AIs in technology because they want to send their modern armors at against a helpless archer. If they want to do that, it's cool with me; however, victory seems so hollow if you ask me.

I can not see the diffeence frankly. So if I am playing cards with childrend and hold off on winning to some other arbitary point that makes the win better? Hows that work? The AI is like a child compared to you. You elect to not make moves that could win nowin favor of winning later and that is better? Hey if you want to be magnanimous why not let it win?

[vmxa1]

Theseus, I like that method for the most part, especially going into modern ear. The only gotcha for warmongrs is that trading is mostly off the table.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Theseus
So tell me again, when would I not want to research?

When I finally catch up to the AIs on techs and when there are only a few civs left on the planet and when I am the #1 superpower in the world, and when I can be able to discover new tech within every 10 turns or less, that's when I start to research; otherwise, I just concentrate on taking over the world first.

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I can not see the diffeence frankly. So if I am playing cards with childrend and hold off on winning to some other arbitary point that makes the win better? Hows that work? The AI is like a child compared to you. You elect to not make moves that could win nowin favor of winning later and that is better? Hey if you want to be magnanimous why not let it win?

You are probably right about that! I guess I like to see my opponents well feed and strong and even stronger than me before I take them out. Some people seek thrill by jumping out of an airplane. For me, the thrill of defeating an army 7 times stronger than me is what motivate me to play civ.

I guess I'm weird. I don't like to take advantage of the weak one, but like to bring down the powerful one. I guess I have a wicked mind; I need help!

[Theseus]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Theseus, I like that method for the most part, especially going into modern ear. The only gotcha for warmongrs is that trading is mostly off the table.

I forgot to mention... achieving a tech lead for 5-6 techs in a row at the end of the industrial era is powerful enough to overcome reputation and attitude problems.

1. As you make the rounds selling each tech, there will be a variety of wealthy and poor AI civs. Sell to the rich, and gift to the poor. They'll change roles each round, so you'll typically cover most if not all. Towards the end, start giving them discounts on deals.

2. By the time you're done, you will have all their gold, luxuries, and techs. Gift those techs to anyone who doesn't know them too.

3. Especially for the smart warmonger, at this point you'll probably have lots of excess resources. Gift luxuries to the civs that need them, but if they are scientific and need more than one, try to keep one in reserve (or even better, a strategic resource) for the free modern tech.

It's a very powerful technique... I've taken civs from furious to polite. At a minimum, annoyed or cautious to polite is a cake walk.

[Bangedup]

Thesus you forgot one important thing. This thread string is about making money and not the virtues of researching or not researching. IMHO if you make it to the Modern Age (or even Industrial Age) and you are still broke you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your civ.
As for trading techs that is simply something I try never to do. Why sell to the AI, which at Diety level has a huge advantage on research and production, techs for which they never pay a fair price for?
As for giving tech why would a Warmonger give a tech? Why would you give an advantage to your enemy? If you are a true warmonger everyone (that is left) hates you and is just biding their time until they get nukes and then they are going to waste you if they can.
While I definately concede in doing research in Modern Era (which I mentioned in previous post) I do not recommend it if your civ will go broke in the process.

[vmxa1]

Yes, but at this point the game is over and their attitudes are of no interest to me. Your are too powerful for them to act against. If they are evenly match with each other they may not even fight each other.

[Theseus]

I sell techs to make money. In fact, I think you can make more money gaining a selected tech lead (techs the AI doesn;t research) than by not researching... a LOT more.

I swear, try it on some tech you don't "mind" selling, and you'll be amazed at the result.

Personally, I'll sell just about anything except for Mil Trad, Rep Parts, Motor Trans, Syn Fibers, and maybe some of the space race techs (and I'll even sell any or all of those, in certain circumstances).

I do it throught the game, but there's nother better than selling, say, Combustion, and nailing the top AI civs for 100s of gpt EACH, all their treasuries (1000s of gold), all their luxuries, and all their techs... and doing it again 5-6 turns later with Mass Production, and then again, and again, and again...

You end this cycle rich, in WLKTD, productive (including buying any improvement you want, anywhere), and at tech lead or parity.

They end it poor and miserable, unable to research or build effectively, but happier with you because of gifts and good trades (btw, vxma1, attitude still matters to me, either for trading, alliances, or even *gasp* the occasional late-game MPP).

And it is a warmonger strat, albeit a bit Machiavellian. If you're at war during this cycle, it's pretty easy to gain alliances and embargoes. And either way, afterward, when you are ready to attack, you hold all the cards.

[vmxa1]

Once I get the tech lead they don't have any money. I have busted up so many units, taken or raze towns, pillage when I am gathering for the next round. They are broke. I will trade if and when I can, but not any tech that may yield a wonder. If it is early game and I have GL, I will sell techs as they are not broke yet and I want the techs prior to Education to move around so I can get the next AI tech. After GL is obsolete, I start to crank up my research and take my knights to visit.

[Moonsinger]

When it comes to selling tech, I do not withhold anything. If they have enough golds to buy it, they can have it. Especially for the tech that may yield a Great Wonder, they are more willing to pay big money for it. Even if they don't have enough gold, sometimes I just give them for free. Let's them build the Great Wonder for me. Why should I build it myself when they can build it faster than me? Instead of building the GW myself, I just build more armies. By the time they finish their GW project, I just send my troops over to take control of it.