Nomads

[Stefu]

I sorta though that nomads would live off a small area. You know, one with borders, but without cities. All resources of this area would be pooled together to determine how much nomads live in there. These would of course be obstacles to aspiring colonists, as borders of these areas wouldn't move, so military might would have to be used. This means putting stack of units to nomads' territory and declaring war - this means all able nomads hop on their horses, or whatever they have, and attack your stack. Victory means your soldiers can start gleeful campaign of extermination and slavery, resulting to plunder, slaves and you getting area. In more civilized times, this'd be atrocity, so next best option would be setting up reservation for them.

Of course, war's not only thing you can do. Explorers can set up trading posts which trade with nomads. Explorers can also do the old Peter Minuit trick and try to buy land - however, if you try this many times, nomads might get angry at you. Also, if you get good relations enough, you might invite nomads to set up a city and join your civilization - this leads to you getting that city, but they'll be their own ethnic group, possibly leading to trouble later.

[abuzayd]

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat on 06-07-2000 03:30 PM the player would start as the leader of a 'tribe' instead of a 'civilization'. Your 'tribe' would be represented by a nomad unit similar to a settler unit (the nomad unit would have slightly better attack/def than a settler, and could use ressources from tile it is currently on in a limited way). When the player found a good spot and wanted to settle down, the nomad unit could build a city just like a settler unit does.

quote: Originally posted by Spekter@Home on 6-7, 2000 16:45 The tribe unit should grow slowly, and when it reaches a certain poplulation, it splits into two tribes. These two tribes have a chance of being friends or foes.

Ok, combining these two suggestions, here's my idea:

Nomad units behave like mobile cities. That is, they can move like a settler (1 mp), but instead of building cities, they "encamp" in a particular area. An encampment would like sort of like the city screen, but instead of have 21-spaces of resources, it would have only eight (the one it's on and each adjacent tile), and would provide no defensive bonuses. But they generate resources and can build units and improvements just like normal cities. Naturally, the type of improvements they could build would be different and more limited; you can't lug a granary around with you! But nomadic groups often carry various types of tents and other improvements with them, and build semipermanent structures. Of course, when the nomads move on, for whatever reason, they lose these improvements.

Now, like cities, nomads collect resources, and thus experience population growth. But instead of the nomadic unit increasing in size when it fills up the grain-bar, it spawns another nomadic unit. Maybe we could use Spekter's idea and have there be a chance that the newly-spawned unit is a barb rather than one of yours. My only reservation is that I would worry that someone could get knocked out of the game by their own barb nomad right at the beginning.

Another question: how to make the transition from nomadic to settled life? Part of the problem as I see it is that no one has really figured out what caused the rise of agriculture to begin with. So we're a little in the dark, trying to model something we don't fully understand (but I guess you could say that about lots of stuff in civ!!) Here's my suggestion:

You begin the game with 1 nomad unit, and the civilization advance "Hunting and Gathering." This allows your unit to derive resources from resource squares only. Thus you want to park your nomad unit near one of these. When pop growth causes it to spawn, you'll have to send the next nomad group in search of different resource squares.

For enhanced realism, resources should be depleted after a period of time. Would this wreak too much havoc with the Civ engine??

The next step for your hapless nomads would be a civilization advance called "Horticulture." This represents primitive slash-and-burn agriculture. With this, your nomads would be able to derive resources from grassland and plains squares (this is predicated on the assumption that the terrain types don't change in Civ-III) only. But you still wouldn't be able to produce settlers.

Finally, with the advent of "Agriculture," your nomad unit would be able to "build" a settler. To do this, you would have to be able to find the resources. And since a settler requires 1 grain to survive, your nomad unit would basically just turn into that settler.

These are just thoughts... any other suggestions?
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 08, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

Abuzayd, you're suggestions are good! Because it'll only affect the very beginning of the game, implementing it won't destablise gameplay too much.

However, there should be an option to skip all the nomad stuff (I'm not suggesting it's bad or anything) and go straight to the settler unit ala normal Civ.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Par4]

Christantine the Great, can I call you CtG its so much easier to type. I think this model has gone about as far as it can, and I love it!! But no depletable resources, or at least let me turn it off. I don't want to run out of bauxite to make aluminum to make airplanes for my airforce right in the middle of a war or if my nomad Civ has filled up the fruitful valley and will die because we wasted all the good soil.

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I use this email
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HappyLand

[Christantine The Great]

This is my new UserName.

I like everybody's suggestions. Sorry but I won't be able to send alot of feedback for a while due to technical reasons. Sry. Keep "Nomad" alive for me while I am gone!!


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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[abuzayd]

Ultrasonix:

quote: However, there should be an option to skip all the nomad stuff (I'm not suggesting it's bad or anything) and go straight to the settler unit ala normal Civ.

I totally agree, especially for creating scenarios.

Par4:

quote: But no depletable resources, or at least let me turn it off. I don't want to run out of bauxite to make aluminum to make airplanes for my airforce right in the middle of a war or if my nomad Civ has filled up the fruitful valley and will die because we wasted all the good soil.

Depletable resources definitely opens up a big can of worms, and would probably end up requiring a lot of micromanagement making the game less fun to play... the reason I brought it up was because nomads have to have a reason for moving around rather than staying in one place. I guess you could have some sort of depletion model that disappears with the rise of agricultute in the "Neolithic revolution," but that's probably too complicated as well. Any ideas??

Another thought -- someone in the "Ultimate ICS thread" proposed that there should be different sizes of cities: villages, towns, and cities, with different capabilities (see the thread). Could the nomad model be incorporated into this?

[Napoleon I]

bump

Krakenkiller: This is the thread that I was talking about. Tell us what you think.


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Napoleon I

[Theben]

This is from Diodorus Sicilius from last year. I thought it should be posted here along with the other ideas:

quote: Nomadic Civilizations: I posted a bit on this some time ago, now it's time to elaborate (okay, it's 'way past time to elaborate...) If you start with Domestication but not Agriculture (possible Starting Advances/Techs), or if you start with Agriculture but in terrain that isn't suitable (desert without Irrigation Tech), or if you just feel snarkey, you can choose to start by forming a Tribal Unit and becoming Nomadic instead of starting a City and becoming a Settled Civilization (Note: cities should not be formable without agriculture: in game terms, with 10,000 a base figure, even Jericho the first 'city' was about 90% too small for the game!). Characteristics of a Nomadic Civ: Population growth will be very low, because they produce less food from herding and hunting than farmers can from farming. Their 'user' icon (if a CtP type is used) would not be a farmer, but perhaps a shepherd with a sheep or a herdsman on foot with a cow, and food production/tile would be about 2/3 to 1/2 (just above subsistance) of the farmers'. On the other hand, the nomadic civ receives bonuses in Military (the entire population has a lifestyle related to war), Nationalism or Patriotism (whichever term you want to use) because they tend to be a very cohesive group and suspicious/contemptuous of outsiders, and Trade. They will not have a bonus, and possibly a minus, in research, but they can act as Middlemen diffusing or spreading advances from one civilization to another, just as they can act as middlemen trading goods between civilizations they contact. The Tribal Unit is the nomadic 'city'. It can move, but very slowly (1 tile/turn maximum, with at least a 1 turn stop between to get more food). The Tribal Unit automatically generates a defending military unit when it is formed, since all members of the tribe can fight and their life style gives them some base military skill.The unit will be the basic Warrior at first, later the best Foot Unit the Nomads can build. The Tribal Unit can be 'improved' with the following equivalents to City Improvements: City Wall Tribal: Wagon Burgh - has about 1/2 the effect of the city wall, but moves with the Tribe Market Tribal: Bazaar - has 50% more effect than Market, because traders from all over meet and do business there. Library Tribal: Shaman's Hut - has about 25% less effect than the Library Barracks Tribal: Unneeded - all Nomad units are Veterans, or, if a SMAC-system is used, one or two steps higher in Morale than the usual 'green' city folk. Granary Tribal: Storage Pits - same effect as Granary, but also moves with the Tribe Nomadic Units not only start at higher morale, they have a Reconnaissance ability, represented by a 2-tile vision range. In addition, nomadic horse mounted units have more speed than regular civ mounted units. Assuming a light horseman/horse archer for a regular civilization has a speed of 5, the nomad speed would be 6 (this would also be true of Barbarian cavalry). Nomadic units could be hired by regular civs. The hired units would become the hiring civ's color, retain their nomadic characteristics, and could be used by the hiring civ for any purpose EXCEPT attacking the originating nomads! After X (actual number would vary) turns in foreign service, the nomadic unit would lose its nomad characteristics: the vision range, the extra speed. The cost of hiring the units would be subject to negotiation between players/civs, but would nromally be a per turn fee paid to the nomadic or hiree civ directly every turn. Any turn the fee is not paid the hired unit either reverts to nomad colors or possibly revolts and turns Barbarian. In addition, there is one Advance peculiar to the Nomads: the Composite Recurved Bow, made from glued sinew, horn, and bone. If ordinary bowmen or horse archers have a Range Factor of 1 and Short Range, the Composite Bowmen (foot or mounted) would have a Range Factor of 2 and Medium Range (Long Range is strictly modern Artillery and Rockets).Only by hiring Nomad (or Barbarian) units with Composite Bows can a 'civilized' state get their benefit. If a Nomadic civ conquers a city, it can incorporate the city into its civ: the ancient Scythians had several 'settled' cities in the Crimea to produce crops they couldn't raise while roaming. The nomads can also move a Tribal Unit into a city or a suitable city location and 'settle down', turning it into a city (or a bigger city) and becoming a regular civ. Regular Cities that are part of a Nomadic Civ are treated as regular cities in all respects: they can build city-type Improvements and lose their 'automatic' tribal defender unit. Tribal Improvements convert as follows when a Tribe settled down: Wagon Burgh: is lost Bazaar: becomes a Market Shaman's Hut: is lost Storage Pits: becomes a Granary The civ as a whole can still form 'nomad' units with nomad characteristics in its Tribal Units, but only regular civ units in its Cities. All of this means that the Nomadic Civ is a viable alternative play for gamers in the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the game. They get less and less viable as Gunpowder and advanced Improvements appear in other civs, but in the ancient and medieval time periods or eras they are a real contender both militarily and economically for the gamer who likes to play conquest or trading games. It also provides a chance for the gamer who's starting position sucks: if your starting terrain has a lot of desert, no rivers, no good terrain resource icons, etc, just start as a Tribe of Nomads and start moving to the good terrain, occasionally trading with or whacking other civs along the way!

[Christantine The Great]

Someone was talking about nomads so I thought I would revive this thread that I made a month ago.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[DarkCloud]

Hmmm... Nomads. Perhaps they should, in the early game, when one of your cities goes into revolt, when 2 or 3 people angry. They should revert to the Nomad society with only one warrior of the times.; they killed all the millitary supporters of the King/President/Dictator.